Primer Leakage

[Texas Roots]

Many thanks for all your responses guys.

OCD1, I'm so disgusted with this, I probably won't contact Remington. I guess I'm skeptical that they really would'nt give a flying flip.

My general comment to all of you about this is that if I knew then what I know now, I'd just be very conscious of my .357 loads while you are out shooting. Be on the lookout for smoky areas around where the primer meets the case and if you see anything that looks suspicious, immediately look at the recoil plate/shield to make sure those gas leaks aren't cutting into your nice handguns.

Make no mistake, it only takes one like that to do some cutting into the metal.

As I have said, I have not experienced this problem with any other handloads of calibers .44 Mag., .44 Spec., .45 ACP, or AR, or .45 Colt regardless of make of brass or primer.

I now have three very nice .357 S&W's that have the flame cut poc marks on the recoil plate. (At least the damage is to the staked-in bushing that can be replaced, thank goodness).

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Texas,

Perhaps this has already been covered and I missed it.If that's the case,I apologize in advance.


I'm editing this because a smiley face has appeared and I can't seem to get rid of it.Purely an accident.It makes it look like I'm being sarcastic or facetious and such is not the case.

Two questionsid you examine the same areas on the guns "prior" to shooting?Even brand new guns generally have tool marks,etc.I've noticed that sometimes a gun owner will notice imperfections and get quite upset even though the gun is perfectly servicable.I'm not saying that this is true in your case.Just a thought.

Second question:Have you removed the spent primers from the particular cases and examined the pockets,flash holes,etc ?It would be interesting to know what flaws existed.They must differ in some way from the good ones.I would compare with the good ones to see if anything was apparent.

Perhaps you've already done this.

 

[Texas Roots]

canoe....the imperfections are not tool marks. And, you can be sure, since I already had poc marks in my M27-2 and my M19-4 that got there a few years ago, I looked very, very closely at the same area on the most recent M-27-2 purchase I just got a few weeks ago. It did NOT have these poc marks until I shot it last Friday. I have a picture of my M19-4 with these poc marks that I will try to post here. These same marks (though not as bad) are now on my new-to-me M27-2 with 6 1/2" barrel.

Yes, just yesterday, I decided to do my own research to see exactly where the leakage occurred. So, I decapped one of the offenders, and looked closely under magnification at the primer and the case head.

The primer had a vertical (very small) slit right at the top edge of the primer where it meets the case. The case was cut right where this slit in the primer was as well.

So, now the question is, what caused the failure; in other words, what was the root cause?

It wasn't my load because I've shot this load before thousands of times since the early 1970's and not had this type of failure until recently.

I also still do not think it was the primer's fault.

The case however, had a peculiar bevel right where the primer meets the case. My other non-Remington and my Remington Nickle cases do not have this bevel. The slit in the primer occurred right where this bevel is in the case which could mean the primer did not have proper support at that location and blew out.

I just am not sure if this bevel could be the root cause, but you can be sure I won't be buying any cases that have this bevel on them.

Hopefully, I can get this pic. of my M19 up here for you to see. I took some #0000 steel wool to the staked in bushing area so you can see the poc marks better.

 

[acl864]

I've never seen damage like that before. There is definitely something strange going on to cause that type of cratering. As far as the bevel around the primer pocket- some types of brass have that- some do not. If the primer is properly seated it shouldn't be an issue. But who knows?

 

[SMSgt]

I haven't loaded .357s in years, but when I did--using RP brass--I never had primer issues. It must be a recent problem.

I currently use RP brass (almost any brand actually) in my .45 auto with no issues. In fact, the only brass I no longer reload is stamped CBC. It splits badly.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Excellent pictures.This is very odd.

I'm presuming that powder gas leaking around the primer's edge would produce some form of erosion or flame cutting in that area.The craters on the firing pin bushings look quite different from what I'd expect.Very strange indeed.

If it were me,I'd inspect more than 1 case.In the same batch,I'd seperate a dozen each of those that did leak and those that did not.Under good light,I'd inspect with magnification.

About the bevel on the case's primer pocket.I may not understand exactly where you mean but if I do,the bevel around the edge of the pocket is normal.It simply allows the primer to enter the pocket more easily.I would find the primer/pocket seal to be far more relevant.I think that the interior of the pocket is where I'd inspect most closely.

I can only assume that the primers fit snugly.

 

[Texas Roots]

canoe on the yukon, you have a PM.

 

[Rule3]

Many thanks for all your responses guys.

OCD1, I'm so disgusted with this, I probably won't contact Remington. I guess I'm skeptical that they really would'nt give a flying flip.

My general comment to all of you about this is that if I knew then what I know now, I'd just be very conscious of my .357 loads while you are out shooting. Be on the lookout for smoky areas around where the primer meets the case and if you see anything that looks suspicious, immediately look at the recoil plate/shield to make sure those gas leaks aren't cutting into your nice handguns.

Make no mistake, it only takes one like that to do some cutting into the metal.

As I have said, I have not experienced this problem with any other handloads of calibers .44 Mag., .44 Spec., .45 ACP, or AR, or .45 Colt regardless of make of brass or primer.

I now have three very nice .357 S&W's that have the flame cut poc marks on the recoil plate. (At least the damage is to the staked-in bushing that can be replaced, thank goodness).

It doesn't hurt to try. You may be surprised. If there is a flaw in their product many large responsible companies do care and want to avoid product liability situations.

As I mentioned, I had a problem with Olin Winchester 9mm white box (big deal right?) But several of the bullets had been seated incorrectly and actually bulged out the side of the brass. I wrote them a e mail and the lady at corporate sent me a Fed Ex pick up label as they wanted to examine the ammo. I sent it to them and received a $20 coupon and a nice letter thanking me and blah blah blah. But at least they knew and did something.

I have seen a ammo company replace a brand new SW AR15 for faulty ammo. Blew the rifle apart. No I am not saying what company just that it was "re-manufactured" ammo.

 

[Texas Roots]

Many thanks to you all for following this thread.

Now, here are two pics of the same Remington case I decapped to see what I could see.

Notice the very small slit in the top edge of the primer. (the second pic. shows a gray spot below the slit but it is a shadow, not a smudge or part any failed portion of the primer)

You cannot really see the pronounced bevel on the corresponding edge of the primer pocket, but it is way more pronounced than on any of my other cases. I do have other Remington (nickle) cases that do not have this large pronounced bevel and that I've not had any trouble with.

Normally, when the gun is fired, the primer backs out level with the case head but is normally supported by the gun with good headspace.....the sides of the primer are still supported by the primer pocket walls, and there is no problem with blown out primers.

However, now, with this darn oversized bevel, when the primer backs out slightly upon firing the gun, the primer is unsupported ALL THE WAY AROUND THE TOP EDGE WHERE IT IS UNSUPPORTED BY THIS LARGE BEVEL; AND SWELLS OUT TO BEYOND ITS CAPACITY AND THEN A SMALL RUPTURE HAPPENS.

I'm still open for suggestions and welcome all comments and questions if you are interested in following this.

 

[Skeeziks]

They said it was within their standards.

Well, then...Remington needs to up their standards.

 

[dla]

Interesting. I wonder if Remington brass was the reason WLP primers cracked in my 44 mag application?

See WLP primer cracking

 

[Texas Roots]

dla, wow, that picture of the cracked primer in the case looks EXACTLY like what my occurrances look like; only the caliber is different...mine is in .357 caliber.

Did you contact any of the manufacturers about it?

Any other thoughts about what you think might have caused your problems.

 

[nicky4968]

Just for clarification. You refer to using the Remington Small Pistol Primer. Is it the 1 1/2 or 5 1/2?
Are you successfully using the Remington primer in non-Remington cases?
(The 1 1/2 primer is for "standard" loads and the 5 1/2 is for "magnum" loads. No difference in priming compound, but the 5 1/2 is sturdier).
OTOH, everything seems to be going downhill these days.

 

[Texas Roots]

nicky, yes it's the 5 1/2 I'm using and yes, I'm having no problems using that primer in other brands of brass; specifically Winchester, Remington nickled cases, PMC brass cases and even in .38 Special military brass stamped WCC 81.

By the way, this is the first time I ever heard the differences in the Remington 1 1/2 and the 5 1/2 primer.

The box of 1000 5 1/2 primers I have been using makes no referance to these being a "Magnum" primer!

Is this something new? Good grief, what else do I not know?

Additionally, I'm not even pursuing getting my revolvers repaired right now....since I'm not entirely sure just what the heck is going on....bad primers, poorly manufactured cases, or what.

 

[nicky4968]

No, not new. That's what the 5 1/2 was created for; high-pressure small pistols. As I say, it's the same amount of priming compound as the 1 1/2, but supposedly sturdier to withstand the higher pressures.
Sounds like the problem is in the brass. I have hundreds of Remington .38 Special cases, but all but a few are reserved for standard .38 Special loads. A few .38-44 loads for a Model 28 that I had to sell.
I have Remington 1 1/2 that are at least 25 years old. I forgot I had them. I had put them in a special place so that I wouldn't lose them. ha-ha.
I've been using Winchester Small Pistol for standard and magnum loads for a long, long time. No complants from brass or primers.

 

[dla]

Texas Roots: I really don't have any more information. I've used WLP with 45acp, all types of brass, for a zillion years. The 44mag load wasn't hot - note that the primer didn't flow, tophat or otherwise look abused. I quit using WLP for 44 mag, but I still use Remington brass. I also use Starline, but I never tried WLP with it.

 

[Titegroups]

Good posts. Sure looks like the radius/bevel maybe the problem on those rem. .357 cases.

 

[Bruce51]

picture

Here is a picture of brand new 20 year old RP cases.
I suggest you copy and paste and then zoom in to see if your cases are different. I have had no problems with these cases. Let us know what you think about how these are made as opposed to your current cases.



Bruce

 

[Texas Roots]

Bruce, first off, I am not sure that the bevel/radius in the Remington brass is the root cause. I'm still trying to collect data both from my own experiences and others.

The problem seems to be pointing to the radius in the cases, to me anyway, but I'm no metalurgist and have no training at failure analysis.

All that said, your cases look suspect to me. However, it would also be a good exercise for you to get some of your cases you've had no problems with; decap them, and then compare the radius, to the ones in the picture, under magnification. I used twice the normal magnification to get a good look at mine.

First, I put on my OptiVisor for initial magnification and then added a strong magifying glass so that I was looking essentially through two levels of magnification. You'll then most likely see any differences in radius.

Just to see if my suspicions are correct, I'd like to buy a junker .357, get some .357 cases, hand-ream the radius myself to the "over done" point, load 'em up and see what happens to the primers.

 

[Rule3]

Maybe i missed it somewhere in the posts but have you tried a different brand of primer with the same load and noticed the leakage with the other primer???