Progressive and Bad Ammo

[GypsmJim]

I've been reloading for 40+ years using a single stage press. Shoot about 4000 rounds a year. Reloading is a Winter hobby, so time is not of the essence. When I first started I was guided by an old timer who stressed the need for cleaning primer pockets and checking the powder level in each case, thus a progressive was out of the question.

So, here's my poll question.....
For those that use a progressive, How many squibs or otherwise defective rounds have you ever made, and over what time period?

After I get a few responses I'll tell ya'll how many bad ones I've made with my single stage...

 

[AveragEd]

I just made the upgrade - and it IS an upgrade - to a progressive loader for my handgun ammo a few months ago. I've loaded my trap loads on a progressive shotshell loader for years (it's even electrically-operated) but use a single-stage loader for my rifle ammo and used it for my handgun rounds, too. But arthritis makes that many cycles of the operating handle painful, so I sprung for a Dillon XL650 about three months ago.

So far, with about 3,000 target-level shells in .38 Special, .38 Super, .44 Magnum and .45ACP turned out, I've had zero duds. I do have low-powder sensors on all four tool heads for the loader but none of those alarms have had to sound yet. I suppose my familiarity with progressive loaders carrying over from my years of loading shotshells on one helped but I think that just keeping your mind on what you are doing and learning HOW your loader operates are keys to success.

I have had two potential duds, however, that had inverted primers. But I caught them as I give each shell a quick look-over as I box them and the inverted primers were obvious.

If you're struggling, have faith - things will get better!

Ed

 

[FloridaFlier]

I never had a single stage press. Started with a Dillon 550 ten years ago, and still use it. I guess I've got about 15K rounds through it.
In the beginning, I admit to making a lot of bad ammo, usually the problem was that for many reasons the powder wasn't flowing. In second place for lousy ammo was poor primer placement, or a piece of crud in the primer cup.

What I learned was to check every round when setting up something new, then maybe about every 10th round, then about every 25th or so, and that's my SOP now.

Now, when I open a tray of 100 primers, I fully expect to make 100 perfect rounds. I still do a lot of checking, but there are not too many things I haven't seen.

To be fair, I only make target ammo for .38 Special, 9mm, .44 Special and .45 ACP. If I were loading for extreme rifle bullseye competition, I would be using different procedures.

Reloading is a hobby that I enjoy, and practice makes perfect. You know you're doing well when your buddies want to swap a box of their factory ammo for a box of yours.

 

[shield]

Only been reloading for about a year on a Dillon Square Deal (SDB). Initially 9mm, and recently also .45 ACP. Make about 500-1000 rounds a month. I can make 100 rounds in about 10-15 min after all set to go (powder set, primers loaded). Never had a squib. Only problem I ever had was not fully seating some primers causing FTF when I switched brands that took more effort to seat. Not a problem now. I've never cleaned primer pockets.

 

[Bkreutz]

Dillon 650, 30,000+ rounds since last summer, zero ammo problems (or any other type either) Before that I used a Lee turret for many years, no problems there too.

 

[chipking]

Been loading on a progressive for both shotgun and metallic for a little over 15 years. With 35 years on a single stage before that.
On the shotgun zero reload mistakes have made it to the gun and probably 30 or so caught during the loading process. When I was competing in both Trap and Skeet that was in excess of 20, 000 rounds per year for 8 years or so.
With progressive metallic I had my first and only one to make it to the gun about 3 months ago. I have caught probably more than a hundred or better in process with the majority being a hung powder measure and a few flipped primers. Being retired I shoot somewhere between 200 and 400 rounds per week with my buddies depending on the weather.
Even with the single stage the powder measure was always the weak link that and contaminating primers during the load process. Had far more FTFs when I handled every primer. Probably 45 or better during my time in High Power Match competition all on a single stage. Problem with those is that you never know if it was your fault or bad primers. At least until you hear others griping about the same problem with the same make and vintage primers.
The thing to remember is that even with a progressive 1. it is not a race to see how many you can make and 2. you still need to pay attention to the loading process including sight, sound and feel.
Chip King

 

[David R]

I had a roadmaster, my biggest and frequent problem was with primers. I bought a used Dillion 450 and upgraded it to 550. I have loaded thousands of rifle and many thousands of pistol. I stuck one bullet in the barrel due to no powder. If I have problems they are following a distraction. If I am paying attention, things go smooth. Like chipking said, its not a race. Once I decided smooth is better than fast, all my problems went away. I don't care how many I can load per hour. I enjoy loading too much to add any kind of pressure. I don't have any alarms, I watch each case to make sure it has a charge, I watch the primer "dipstick" and make sure the powder measure is not empty. If something goes wrong, I usually feel it. Any bad rounds get caught before it matters. I even put a small light so I can see in the case to make sure its charged about the right amount.

I can feel the less resistance of a split case, I can feel if the primer is not there and I can feel if the bullet gets cocked before seating. I go slow enough to stop before I have a bigger mess to deal with.

Enjoy
David

 

[MichiganScott]

I load around 1000 rounds a year during the winter on a single stage also. I've still got the three rounds that didn't go off since I began reloading in 1974, and those three were loaded in the late '70s.

 

[chief38]

I've had progressive reloading presses for about 30 +years and have literally loaded tens and tens of thousands of rounds over that time. Now I have a Dillon 650 that cranks 'em out might fast - BUT MIGHTY RELIABLE TOO! I have had only ONE squib in all the years I've loaded and that happened on my Dillon Square Deal and was MY FAULT - not the machine's. They are perfectly reliable as long as we do our part!

 

[90crvtec]

As a lot of guys here have alluded to, the press doesn't make bad ammo, the guy pulling the handle does.

I started reloading with a progressive and the only time I have issues has been when I wasn't paying attention. The press, just like our firearms, is just a machine that does what we tell it to do.

I pay close attention when reloading and minimize distractions during the reloading session. I find that I can make very high quality ammunition that is very consistent and always goes bang. If I used this same level of attention with a single stage press I have no doubt that my results would be identical, albeit at a little bit slower pace.

 

[blujax01]

I've been reloading with a Dillon for four years. Last year I started using a Hornady S.S. for fun and to date, have had to remake more ammo produced on the LnL than the 650. I guess it's just how I'm wired.

 

[glowe]

Come on GypsmJim, do you really think that reloaders will ever say anything bad about their progressive presses?? It is like asking the owners of Japanese cars if there is anything that has ever gone wrong with their automobile!

The answer will almost always be NO!

I also reload all my rifle and pistol calibers on a single stage press. I do have a MEC 9000G for shotgun reloading and I have had many problems with sticking primers, non-dropped powder, crumpling cases, etc. but inspect with every pull of the lever and correct issues before the shell drops out of the machine.

 

[AveragEd]

Well glowe, this is one guy who WILL say bad things about a progressive loader. I've been asked by my editor-in-chief to not mention the company name, but I once owned - for a SHORT time - a very expensive and quite popular brand of progressive shotshell loader that buckled hulls.

The company's customer service folks were extremely rude and blamed me for the problem, even when a friend with the same brand and model of loader had the same problem and together, we traced the cause to a newly-designed crimp die part in our machines. When I ordered an older-style part for my loader, the problem cleared. To this day, that company is known around gun clubs and Internet trapshooting discussion forums for its poor customer service.

You probably know what company I'm referring to but if not, hang around with some veteran trapshooters a while and you'll find out!

By the way, I load my trap loads on a MEC 9000E powered by an AutoMate II and can tell you from experience that if your 9000 is not running like a well-oiled machine, something is out of adjustment or worn.

Ed

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I have a Mec 9000G and have messed up a number of rounds. Just like posted earlier Machines have no will of the own, in other words Machines don't make mistakes-owners/operators do!
Back to metallic cartridges, I've owned a Dillon since 1984. It started out as a 450 and has been upgraded to 550 B status, with a case feeder. Starting with the case feeder; It will make loading easier, but it won't make loading better or faster. I would not buy it again. It was a bear to adjust and will jam on a short stroke-which happens when you stop to keep from making a bad round.
Now about bad ammo. I never failed to prime a round, until I installed the case feeder. This is astounding considering that the 450 had a manual priming bar. Also astounding is I never failed to drop powder either. The 450 had a push bar powder drop (and it was astoundingly consistent with ball powder). Things to avoid are, #1-TV, #2- wife or children, #3- well meaning or curious friends. Music in the background covers noises that might distract you. Every hour or so you should take a short break, get a drink etc., check in with the family (so they won't come looking for you) and reload your primer tubes. This is also a great time to line up all the components for the next hour (think in terms of 500 or 600 Rounds. If the wife says 1/2 hour until dinner, only set out 300 components and let her know you'll be there when your batch is done (follow thru on this and they leave you alone when needed!) Back in the early 450 days, I loaded 1 batch of 223. It was 20,000 rounds it took weeks of loading, and I have about 6000 left. They have been flawless, and In a bolt gun shoot less than 1/4" groups @ 100 yards. After that I loaded 9mm in 10,000 round batches to feed my full auto MAC-10.(I did 4 of the batched without any bad ammo produced. Now days mostly do a years worth of ammo per cartridge in a single batch (45 ACP is about 6000, 45 Colt is about 4500 and others in like quantities).
Get a system, pay attention, and you'll make good ammo. Have fun. Ivan

 

[dla]

..
For those that use a progressive, How many squibs or otherwise defective rounds have you ever made, and over what time period?

I had one squib in 15 years using a Dillon, and it technically wasn't a squib since there was enough powder/primer for the bullet to make it out of a 5" 1911 barrel.

I'll get a no-primer round that'll slip through about once every couple thousand rounds if I reload with the Dillon not up to room temp (garage in the winter just isn't warm enough).

I've been reloading pistol rounds with a progressive for 15 years. When reloaded on a single-stage I would have a batch of near-squibs every once in a while. Usually happened when I was tired and would have a brain fart. Progressives don't have brain farts.

 

[Aticus]

I've been reloading for 40+ years using a single stage press. Shoot about 4000 rounds a year. Reloading is a Winter hobby, so time is not of the essence. When I first started I was guided by an old timer who stressed the need for cleaning primer pockets and checking the powder level in each case, thus a progressive was out of the question.

So, here's my poll question.....
For those that use a progressive, How many squibs or otherwise defective rounds have you ever made, and over what time period?

After I get a few responses I'll tell ya'll how many bad ones I've made with my single stage...

What we have here is a loaded question. But here's my response.

I've been using a progressive press for 13 years. I don't know how many "defective" cartridges I've gotten with it nor how many I got the previous 15 years using a single stage press. I didn't count. I DO know that every one I've ever gotten was a failure of the dummy pulling the handle not the press. As long as I operate the equipment (all of the equipment) properly, as long as I keep to the established routine, the equipment performs as it should and I get no "defective" cartridges.

 

[imashooter2]

Number of squibs and defective rounds that have made it into my firearms? Zero.

Number of no or double charge rounds? Zero.

Number of defective rounds (crushed case, sideways primer, upside down primer, etc.) that never made it out of the reloading room? Hundreds over a period of many years and hundreds of thousands of rounds loaded. Total is well under 1/2 of 1%.

 

[glowe]

Number of squibs and defective rounds that have made it into my firearms? Zero.

Number of no or double charge rounds? Zero.

Number of defective rounds (crushed case, sideways primer, upside down primer, etc.) that never made it out of the reloading room? Hundreds over a period of many years and hundreds of thousands of rounds loaded. Total is well under 1/2 of 1%.

That is the key - careful inspection of every round will keep reloaders at zero range problems.

 

[Twoboxer]

I've had 2 squibs on 223 using a single stage.

On progressive, I've made no squibs, probably a dozen cartridges without primers (hard to miss - disassembled in the reloading room), crushed maybe 2 cases, and had a few odd other cartridges made with bad flares/crimps, wrong size . . . all during setup. All fixed

I also once pulled apart 20 rounds of 45ACP that I suspected had the wrong powder charge. I got interrupted by an emergency, came back the next day, and wasn't sure where I was at. Threw some test powder charges, got low weights, adjusted, finished the batch, pulled the 20, re-did those.

Not sure your question and or our answers prove anything really.

If the only squibs I've made were with the single stage, maybe it's because I learned my lesson. Maybe it's because the progressive's powder cop gives me a second chance to get it right.

The progressive allows you to make ammo faster . . . whether you're making good ammo or bad ammo . . . but that's just the nature of the beast. You may get 0 or 1 round made on a single stage without a primer before you catch it . . . on a progressive you'll likely get more.

 

[hfl73]

I have been reloading on my Dillon 650 for about 4 years cranking out 15,000+ rounds. I had 1 squib and that happened within my first 100 rounds or so. The 650 was my first press of any type and there was a bit of a learning curve, the squib was totally user error. Now I occasionally get a primer or two that is seated too high, but all in all I have had good results and am very happy with my press.