Pruning the Sig Tree

[SA1911]

Looks like Sig has discontinued some great guns and added a model known as the 365.

I don't have anything against polymer handguns per se; however, I think that they might be unwieldy when firing self-defense ammo. I'd be good carrying a 17oz 3" 9MM. But when using SD ammo, could I keep its muzzle on a threat?

The P239 .40 S&W weighs in at just under 2 pounds. I know that it's on the heavy side, but its weight prevents muzzle jump, which allow me to keep its muzzle on target.

 

[IraIII]

Sig is just following what all the other makers have decided to do. Striker fired polymer are the newest things, and it is much cheaper to manufacture polymer than metal. It does not make me happy as sig was one of my go to for metal hammer fired, and HK for polymer hammer fired. I only own one striker handgun a shield 9 and with the rebate I couldn’t pass it up. The shield carries nicely, but I prefer my P239’s, or my 3913, give me a hammer any day over a striker, but the shield and P365 are the wave of the future.

 

[Mister X]

There is a shift toward polymer framed guns because that is what is selling and what people want.

I don't have much experience with striker-fired Sigs, but a Glocks low bore axis, balance and grip angle more than make up for the lower weight in terms of controlling recoil.

 

[PPS1980]

First, SIG had an unwieldy catalogue of options (still does frankly) where even SIG aficionados can't keep them all straight.

Second, the 365 shouldn't be any more uncontrollable than the various very successful single stack 9s that have been out since the release of the PPS. Many of them are fine weapons that are reliable and very accurate.

I'm not interested in one as I have weapons that fit that niche already but it does present some interesting pluses in that category.

 

[Cardboard_killer]

Sig is just following what all the other makers have decided to do. Striker fired polymer are the newest things, and it is much cheaper to manufacture polymer than metal.

Striker fired polymer pistols have been around longer than the 1911 had been around when WW2 started. Presumably there was some Sargent carrying a single action army saying that automatics were newfangled guns destined to jam up in real combat.

 

[PPS1980]

Striker fired polymer pistols have been around longer than the 1911 had been around when WW2 started. Presumably there was some Sargent carrying a single action army saying that automatics were newfangled guns destined to jam up in real combat.

Remember, most of the US Military Academy graduates in the Civil War refused to consider lever action rifles. Then they encountered them in combat........

Problem is the flip side is true too - new doesn't equate to better. Better is better, new is new, and sometimes old is better.

 

[fiasconva]

Looks like they've also canned the 290. It had a lot of mixed reviews.

 

[Cardboard_killer]

Problem is the flip side is true too - new doesn't equate to better. Better is better, new is new, and sometimes old is better.

The problem is the characterization of these guns as "new". Polymer, striker fired pistols have been around for nearly 40 years now. That's no longer new. That's longer than S&W made the model 28 Highway Patrolman.

 

[SA1911]

Profit is a huge criterion when manufacturing anything.

 

[IraIII]

New is probably not a good word to convey what I am thinking, flavor of the day maybe closer. Strikers have been around a long time, but now are the flavor of the day. I just wish that sig had not followed the others into dropping hammer fired in favor of striker. There are many striker fired options available, but we have lost the 3913, and now the P239. All the strikers vary in round count, size, trigger feel, grip feel in large and small degrees. All compete for market share in a down market.
At least Sig has theP225a1, which is almost the same size as the P239, but will sell because everyone doesn’t have that model yet. I think that the magazine from the P239 will also work correctly on the P225a1 frame, showing how close they are. I found the post on Sigforum, and the P239 will interchange with the P225a1 slide, and will work correctly. This dinosaur laments the passing of an old classic, and the addition of another in the glut of striker firearms, but the buyer shall choose, and determine the market,

 

[dubtap21]

Give me metal and hammer fired all day. Not happy about this either.

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[sodacan]

The 239 is/was a great pistol and a true classic. Polymer guns are much cheaper to produce and have better profit margins. They're also more affordable for many buyers. One day we'll probably be able to put them in our recycling bins.

 

[Arik]

Looks like Sig has discontinued some great guns and added a model known as the 365.

I don't have anything against polymer handguns per se; however, I think that they might be unwieldy when firing self-defense ammo. I'd be good carrying a 17oz 3" 9MM. But when using SD ammo, could I keep its muzzle on a threat?

The P239 .40 S&W weighs in at just under 2 pounds. I know that it's on the heavy side, but its weight prevents muzzle jump, which allow me to keep its muzzle on target.

Thank God!! It was about time. Although they've gotten better they used to have something like 30 different versions of each gun. That's a little ridiculous. Besides a lot of their guns weren't really selling. They introduced a new 225 which will not take the old 225 mags and in the same size as the 239. Making 2 guns that compete against each other but with the 225 costing close to $1000. More is great but sometimes less is better!

There's not much difference in SD ammo. It's not like one is a lot more powerful than the other.

Sigs actually have more of a muzzle flip due to having a higher bore axis. Both my 226 9mm and 220 45acp have more muzzle flip then my Glocks in the same calibers. It's not drastically more but definitely noticable. There's other guns that have lower bore axis but I don't own those

Glock in Red. 1911 in Green and the actual gun is an HK

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[Arik]

I had an opportunity to purchase a used but in great condition 239 for $375. At first I was excited until I started looking closer at it. It offered zero advantage over my G19 that I carry every day. Both guns are the same size, same thickens but the 239 weighed more and carried less ammo. If Im buying a single stack gun it's for lighter weight and easier concealability. I would just choose a Shield or G43 or LC9. When the 239 was first introduced I would have probably been all over it but today there's no point

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[BAM-BAM]

Have to agree with Arik....... when the 239 first came out seemed like a great idea/option from the pictures........... but in person it offered no advantage over the S&W 3913 I'd been using for years..........

Even the old 225/P6 is a fairly big gun compared to the 3913... closer in size to a 39 IMO ..... for the size one might as well get the hi-cap 228/229.


Generally I've liked the P Series since the 1980s when a alloy frame 220 replaced the 1911 as my primary carry .45........ I have a couple of 220s ( one W. Ger and one Steel frame) and a couple of Compact 245s which I got in the 1990s to fill my concealed carry .45 needs...... though truth be told.... with modern ammo I pretty much only carry a 9mm auto in the 21st Century!!!!!

 

[Absalom]

I had an opportunity to purchase a used but in great condition 239 for $375. At first I was excited until I started looking closer at it. It offered zero advantage over my G19 that I carry every day. Both guns are the same size, same thickens but the 239 weighed more and carried less ammo. If Im buying a single stack gun it's for lighter weight and easier concealability.....

I didn’t carry my 239 for long, as I acquired it during a transitional period in my gun-toting development that shortly led me to devolving into revolvers again.

But I found it to be the most naturally concealable semi-auto I’ve ever owned in a major caliber, which I habitually carried IWB. It had the “threat profile” of a full-size pistol when you looked at its business end, due to its substantial slide, which matters not at all for concealability. But the slim grip, which makes all the difference, made it both very comfortable to carry and unobtrusive, while being large enough to shoot securely (although the classic Sig high-bore-axis issue mentioned above was definitely present). I must add that I have only medium-size hands and find all the double stack Sigs of that generation too fat for my liking.

 

[Arik]

I didn’t carry my 239 for long, as I acquired it during a transitional period in my gun-toting development that shortly led me to devolving into revolvers again.

But I found it to be the most naturally concealable semi-auto I’ve ever owned in a major caliber, which I habitually carried IWB. It had the “threat profile” of a full-size pistol when you looked at its business end, due to its substantial slide, which matters not at all for concealability. But the slim grip, which makes all the difference, made it both very comfortable to carry and unobtrusive, while being large enough to shoot securely (although the classic Sig high-bore-axis issue mentioned above was definitely present). I must add that I have only medium-size hands and find all the double stack Sigs of that generation too fat for my liking.

Length wise the grip of the 239 and G19 are the same. 239 is a little slimmer of course but that also depends on the grips you use.

Only comparison I can find was between a G30 (G19 size) and 239

And when added with a rubber grip it becomes thicker. Of course that's not necessarily everyone's grip

 

[Krogen]

I've long been using two Sigs for self defense. The P220 in 45 ACP and P228 in 9mm have served well. Simple, just pull the trigger. No safety lever. Perfectly reliable and metal. However, the long double-action first pull has always been troublesome for me. First shot usually went to a different place than followups. Also, one has to remember to de-cock the pistol if you haven't exhausted the magazine. Both of these characteristics are simple enough to handle on a range. They're not the best in a self defense situation.

Along the line, I found I like striker-fired pistols. They solve both problems I associate with my Sigs. Most certainly I like metal and walnut while striker-fired guns aren't either of those. I got over it. They're simply tools that don't take the place of my revolvers.

I couple years ago I bought a Ruger SR40. It was my first plunge into 40 S&W and plastic pistols. Never did trust it. It would shuck live rounds from the magazine when extracting fired cases. Looking inside made me think it was a cross between a squirt gun and and an airsoft. I wasn't about to trust my life to it.

Two days ago I replaced the SR40 with an H&K VP40. Although plastic, a look inside revealed excellent craftsmanship. The machining is superb. Small stamped parts are crisply formed. Even the plastic frame is crisp and appears precisely formed. I like the replaceable backstrap and side panels that allow me to fit the gun to my paws. It remains to be determined how well I can shoot it. If that's a success and the gun is reliable, I'll retire my Sigs. I may also pick up a VP9. It's hard to say that, but for self defense I want a simple reliable tool that I can shoot well.

 

[PPS1980]

I've long been using two Sigs for self defense. The P220 in 45 ACP and P228 in 9mm have served well. Simple, just pull the trigger. No safety lever. Perfectly reliable and metal. However, the long double-action first pull has always been troublesome for me. First shot usually went to a different place than followups. Also, one has to remember to de-cock the pistol if you haven't exhausted the magazine. Both of these characteristics are simple enough to handle on a range. They're not the best in a self defense situation.

Along the line, I found I like striker-fired pistols. They solve both problems I associate with my Sigs. Most certainly I like metal and walnut while striker-fired guns aren't either of those. I got over it. They're simply tools that don't take the place of my revolvers.

I couple years ago I bought a Ruger SR40. It was my first plunge into 40 S&W and plastic pistols. Never did trust it. It would shuck live rounds from the magazine when extracting fired cases. Looking inside made me think it was a cross between a squirt gun and and an airsoft. I wasn't about to trust my life to it.

Two days ago I replaced the SR40 with an H&K VP40. Although plastic, a look inside revealed excellent craftsmanship. The machining is superb. Small stamped parts are crisply formed. Even the plastic frame is crisp and appears precisely formed. I like the replaceable backstrap and side panels that allow me to fit the gun to my paws. It remains to be determined how well I can shoot it. If that's a success and the gun is reliable, I'll retire my Sigs. I may also pick up a VP9. It's hard to say that, but for self defense I want a simple reliable tool that I can shoot well.

HKs are superbly made weapons and offer a lot, particularly with the recent drop is prices announced by HK in the US. I love that they still offer paddles for magazine releases as they are superior to buttons in a variety of ways. Enjoy your new pistol!

 

[Absalom]

Length wise the grip of the 239 and G19 are the same. 239 is a little slimmer of course but that also depends on the grips you use.
....

A lot of it may be subjective, and the angular boxy corners of the Glock may be part of it too. The gun I carried for some time before the 239 was actually a Glock 23, and my impression was a world of difference in carry feel. (As I mentioned, this was a time of transition).

I did try the Hogue grips for the range. They wiped out the concealability advantage of the 239, but certainly increased extended shooting comfort. In fact, these were the only set of Hogues I ever enjoyed; I’ve always hated their grips for revolvers, both the overly aggressive shaping and the hideously ugly appearance

 

[nachogrande]

TOO MANY BRANCHES ON THE TREE?

IF the branches are good, you can't have too many IMO. Look at how many different models/options S&W has * HAD OVER THE YEARS* & nobody seems to be complaining. We all seem to have "favorites", for me, mine are cuz I like what I have & have learned how to use what I have, high bore axis and all. No doubt there is something out there I would like better, but have just not found/held/fired/carried it for a while. When Sig dropped the 239 & came out with the mosquito I wasn't happy & quit following them, & stuck with what I knew. Will the 365 have the ease of field stripping/ability to hit a primer a second time (which I've never needed), be as accurate, the feel of the trigger, whatever YOU feel is important etc etc??? I guess we will have to wait N see. Believing that the 210 re boot made in the US at an "affordable" price will be/should be just like the old one??? Come on now. Issues of wt EMPTY? Maybe Barney carries his gun empty. I think a loaded wt may be a bit more usefull, but no biggie. I think maybe we should hold off on the bashing until we have a chance to try it.

 

[Arik]

IF the branches are good, you can't have too many IMO. Look at how many different models/options S&W has & nobody seems to be complaining. We all seem to have "favorites", for me, mine are cuz I like what I have & have learned how to use what I have, high bore axis and all. No doubt there is something out there I would like better, but have just not found/held/fired/carried it for a while. When Sig dropped the 239 & came out with the mosquito I wasn't happy & quit following them, & stuck with what I knew. Will the 365 have the ease of field stripping/ability to hit a primer a second time (which I've never needed), be as accurate, the feel of the trigger, whatever YOU feel is important etc etc??? I guess we will have to wait N see. Believing that the 210 re boot made in the US at an "affordable" price will be/should be just like the old one??? Come on now. Issues of wt EMPTY? Maybe Barney carries his gun empty. I think a loaded wt may matter a bit more usefull, but no biggie. I think maybe we should hold off on the bashing until we have a chance to try it.

They really don't. S&W has or had different calibers in a few different guns. All K frames are the same. The different butts and sights are not related to function.

Even if we were to look at it as the same, the fact remains that when Sig made 3 or 4 guns in one style they had good quality. Once they started offering 29 different styles in 3 different trigger types for every gun their quality suffered. When they started producing gun in rainbow colors with names like Nightmare it's clear they were trying to appeal to a broad range of civilian owners. Which is fine but not at the sacrifice of quality. Small parts were outsourced, quality control went down hill. But it didn't matter because most civilian owners don't shoot enough to find the problems, however they started loosing contracts. S&W never had that problem.

I don't follow gun manufacturers. I have what I want and they can drop it or not, makes no difference.

I don't know what the 365 will have and I'm not at all concerned about it. Mainly because I'm not going to be the beta tester. If in a year or two they prove to be reliable and does what the Shield or G43 can't then I'll consider one. The only thing that's important to me is utmost reliability. Everything else I can get used to without too much of a hassle (grip, trigger). Field stripping was never something I consider. It's either Glock like with the lever....pull down or rotate.... or 1911 like with the slide stop. Either one is fine.

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[gnystrom]

I really like Sigs and in looking and actually trying IWB with the 239, I found my M11A1 to be just about as easy to carry. Most Sigs are pretty wide but those things just plain shoot accurately. I shoot all my revolvers DA only so the long trigger stroke of the Sig P series doesn't bother me at all.

 

[SA1911]

Sigs, at least the ones I've fired, were of exceptional quality. I've never experienced a single malfunction with any Sig. I can't write that about quality revolvers.

I have a P229, which used to be my duty gun, and a P239, which is my retirement carry gun that I've yet to carry. Both are chambered for the .40 S&W.

I'm old school. I like metal and hammers. I've never taken a shine to striker fired guns. I want to be able to look at a gun and immediately know its condition. But I know that others are more than good with striker fired handguns. I'm good. We have to travel the route that best for us. What's good for me might be bad for another.

I have no problem with "muzzle flip". I can keep my P229's muzzle pointed at a silhouette.

Regarding double action first shot, it's seems to be identical to double action revolvers. And I don't think it'll matter were it used to save a life. Muscle memory becomes controlling.

 

[SA1911]

I really like Sigs and in looking and actually trying IWB with the 239, I found my M11A1 to be just about as easy to carry. Most Sigs are pretty wide but those things just plain shoot accurately. I shoot all my revolvers DA only so the long trigger stroke of the Sig P series doesn't bother me at all.

I agree. The full-size 1911-A1 .45 ACP sits alone atop the pinnacle of self-defense handguns. It has the most natural point of any handgun I've ever fired.

 

[SA1911]

Arik,

I think that you might be nuancing the insignificant.

I can easily conceal a full-size 1911-A1. However, a fully loaded 1911-A1 is very heavy.

I can easily conceal my P229, which I believe is among the very best handguns. It's all about the right holster and belt.

 

[nachogrande]

I REALLY CAN'T DISAGREE WITH SOME/MOST OF YOUR POINTS ARIK.

ALL K frames being the same??? A model 10 (38 only, or 357?) & a model 19, in what bbl length/contour/etc ALL being the same? I DON'T THINK SO. Just because you and I may share some opinions & preferences, others may not. Neither can I disagree that I too like the feel/balance/pointability/thinness/triggers of the 1911. With ENOUGH practice I can LEARN to get along with about any gun I've ever owned, Including Glocks. I'd just like to add that Sig didn't/doesn't stand alone in this declining QC & pandering to what the buyers want (plastic/striker fired/tactikewl/whatever), that keep the doors open. Market demand and ROI still drive mfg to a large degree IMO.

 

[Arik]

Arik,

I think that you might be nuancing the insignificant.

I can easily conceal a full-size 1911-A1. However, a fully loaded 1911-A1 is very heavy.

I can easily conceal my P229, which I believe is among the very best handguns. It's all about the right holster and belt.

I can too. But we can't compare the 1911 and the 239 based solely on raw material and amount of ammo.

The 1911 is a large gun. It's a full size gun and it holds a rather large round. The 239 is a compact and has a much smaller round. I can conceal it easy enough. My point is that I'm concealing a G19 if I conceal a 239 I'm still carrying the same size gun but I just took out half the ammo and added more unnecessary weight. It makes no sense to me to add weight and take away ammo. The gun made sense when it first came out

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[Arik]

ALL K frames being the same??? A model 10 (38 only, or 357?) & a model 19, in what bbl length/contour/etc ALL being the same? I DON'T THINK SO. Just because you and I may share some opinions & preferences, others may not. Neither can I disagree that I too like the feel/balance/pointability/thinness/triggers of the 1911. With ENOUGH practice I can LEARN to get along with about any gun I've ever owned, Including Glocks. I'd just like to add that Sig didn't/doesn't stand alone in this declining QC & pandering to what the buyers want (plastic/striker fired/tactikewl/whatever), that keep the doors open. Market demand and ROI still drive mfg to a large degree IMO.

Absolutely same thing. All same frame. You can add bigger grips, longer barrels, sights, no sights....it's still a K frame. Take a K frame and put a whatever barrel you want on it there nothing to change on the frame. It doesn't need to be bigger, smaller, thicker.

Sig's QC declined around 2004 when they stopped importing from Germany and started doing everything here. The older guns were half German. You'll see them stamped "slide made in Germany". And completely imported before that. It's gotten better since then but for about a decade they were very hit or miss. You either got one that was excellent out of the box or you had nothing but probably early on.

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[Rocket3]

365 being 10+1. I'm planning on a serious look at one.

$499.00 street price not a huge investment.