Push off

[H Richard]

Push off, it can be overcome. I had previously tried to stone a trigger to eliminate push-off, and did not have much success. This last weekend, I was in one of my regular LGS haunts, and he was showing me a 66-1 (with Pinned barrel and recessed chambers) in a 6" gun that overall was not too bad a condition. As he gave it to me to get my opinion, I immediately noticed the hammer and trigger had been "jeweled". I suspected Bubba had been inside and as I checked for push-off it fell with very minimal pressure. I handed it back and he tried it and same thing. He asked if I could do anything with it, and I said I'd try but no guarantees. Now Sat. I attended a gun auction and back in the misc. selling area I did pick up a 6 drawer parts box that I just happened to notice had two drawers of S&W parts including over a dozen mainsprings, and rebound springs. So today I decided to tackle it. Tearing the gun down it was dry as a bone, no lube inside at all, just a little dirt. It cleaned up easily. I set the trigger up and stoned being very careful. Reinstalled and no help. I reread the FAQ about push off and noticed the bit about how "sharp" the edge of the trigger engagement surface needed to be, (drag material off your thumbnail). Using that as a guide I stoned and stoned, and kept going, thinking I surely must be ruining it, but as I checked against my fingernail it started to drag. Gave it just a little more, and decided to re-install and try. Having also read that weak springs can contribute to push off I installed a new mainspring, (the one in it had a "kink" bent in it to reduce pull). With sideplate still off I check it and "it holds". Tried a couple more times and it is still holding cock. Put all back together with a little lube, it is ready to go. The trigger pull is a little heavier, but solid and reliable. Now to go back to the first one I tried and stone it enough to get the sharp square edge.

 

[chief38]

If you had to stone it that much, I hate to say this but the push-off is more than likely only temporarily fixed. Once you stone through the case hardening layer (only a couple of thousandths thick) you are exposing "soft steel" and it will usually only work for a limited amount of time - depending on how often you shoot it of course. I have had stoned surfaces last for years when not shot too often, and I have had them last only a few months on regularly used ones. This has been my experience and YMMV of course.

I always like to keep a few triggers, hammers, springs, screws, pins, hands, cylinder stops, and grips on hand as my Revolvers aren't getting younger and the parts to repair them are getting more scarce and more expensive. I hope the repair you did lasts forever, but it certainly might be an idea to have a spare on hand just in case.

 

[TAROMAN]

Deja vu, I purchased a 6" P&R 66-1 that also had "push off".
Opened it up and Guess what?

Same "smith" must have worked mine over, too.

 

[chief38]

Almost all of the push - off guns that I've encountered have been a result of Bubba. In fact I can only think of one that just plain wore out but that one had 10's of thousands of rounds through it. Thankfully I learned how to check for this 30+ years ago, but a lot of fellas who are buying used guns now just don't know to check - but quickly find out!

 

[mstuhr]

My two cents worth

Howdy,
I have induced the dreaded push off on stock guns with no mods to sear engagement with nothing more than light springs.
I have found some guns can be repaired by fresh factory weight springs.
It never hurts to try it before you go to buying parts.
Thanks
Mike

 

[Combat]

I had good luck on Flea-bay getting SS hammers and triggers for a K frame. I was looking for a smooth "combat" trigger for my 65 and found lots of them. It looks like someone replaced a heap of SS internals from somewhere.

 

[jimmyj]

IIRC (?) a "Fix" consisted of using a type glue (the type that two different compound are mixed together) to replace the worn metal and exposed missing case harden. (this was done by a gunsmith on a Agency Model 27 in 1991

 

[Boxhead]

A proper 'smith can reharden parts if required. No need to replace.

 

[ViperR]

I have a question regarding SS triggers & hammers. Since blued parts are case hardened, what about stainless parts? Are they case hardened as well or is their hardness throughout the entire part?

 

[tomcatt51]

I have a question regarding SS triggers & hammers. Since blued parts are case hardened, what about stainless parts? Are they case hardened as well or is their hardness throughout the entire part?

Except for a few early guns there are no SS triggers or hammers. Just carbon steel that's been flash chromed.

 

[tomcatt51]

I have induced the dreaded push off on stock guns with no mods to sear engagement with nothing more than light springs.
I have found some guns can be repaired by fresh factory weight springs.

Another of the great myths.

PUSHOFF IS NOT CAUSED BY LIGHT SPRINGS.

Pushoff is the result of a lousy hammer notch and/or trigger hook.

Pushoff symptoms can be HID by heavier springs. Lighter springs can make pushoff (a deficient trigger hook or hammer notch) more apparent.

Heavier springs can/will hide a multitude of sins...

If you have good hammer notch / trigger hook surfaces you will not experience pushoff even with the springs removed.

This is easy to verify, try it.

 

[H Richard]

Question? Since the trigger was in a 66 and was a MIM part, that was not case hardened, is the wear less significant for a future problem? Evidently MIM parts must have fairly consistent wear capability throughout. So once fixed it shouldn't wear out sooner like a trigger that had been stoned through the case hardened surface?

 

[tomcatt51]

Since the trigger was in a 66 and was a MIM part...

Your original post says the gun was a 66-1? It would have a MIM trigger only if someone replaced the original with an MIM trigger. Forged trigger have the crosspins holding the lever and hand spring. MIM triggers don't have cross pins and try to launch the hand spring into never never land when you remove the hand... First factory installed MIM (new style) parts in a 66 would be in the 66-5.

As to hardening, the MIM parts are hard all the way thru, not case hardened, and there are no SS MIM parts, only flash chromed ones.

 

[H Richard]

That's what I realized after I made the last post. It was (originally) flash chromed. I should have photographed the hammer & trigger, it was an amateurish "jeweling" job overall. That was my first hint Bubba had been inside. I'm glad it wasn't my gun. Thanks for the warning about the cross pin on the MIN trigger. I'll remember that If I have an opportunity to have to get inside a newer one. I only own a couple that new, most of mine are well prior to that.

 

[Cyrano]

I just acquired a K 38, five screw variety, ca 1950, I think. It has a very light trigger pull and 'push off'. I haven't been inside it yet so don't know if it was Bubba or just lots of shooting; cylinder is quite tight. Guess I need to think about replacing parts; it has a standard trigger but target hammer (replacement?). Are replacement parts drop-in or do they require fitting (probably beyond my very limited gunsmithing skills)? How can you tell which is deficient; the hammer or the trigger (or both?)? I'll install a standard weight rebound spring while I'm in there.

 

[H Richard]

Check out the FAQ's at the top of this forum, and scroll down to the instructions for fixing push off. If not too bad you can do it, or have a qualified gunsmith do it. It is normally the trigger that needs attention.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I have a question regarding SS triggers & hammers. Since blued parts are case hardened, what about stainless parts? Are they case hardened as well or is their hardness throughout the entire part?

The hammers and triggers on the stainless S&Ws from that era were standard case-hardened parts that were then flash chromed to look stainless. S&W stopped flash chroming those parts several years ago, so the stainless revolvers (with the notable exception of the 619, 620 and perhaps certain Performance Center guns) now have ordinary case-hardened hammers and triggers of the same type and finish used in current blue and nickel guns.

 

[tomcatt51]

S&W stopped flash chroming those parts several years ago, so the stainless revolvers (with the notable exception of the 619, 620 and perhaps certain Performance Center guns) now have ordinary case-hardened hammers and triggers of the same type and finish used in current blue and nickel guns.

Maybe I'm mis-reading this, it's not too clear... I believe all the current "new style" or MIM guns have MIM hammers except some PC or Pro Series guns that may have forged hammers with pinned sears. Seems the new keyword to look for is "pinned sear" to designate the gun as maybe having a forged hammer. I'm not even sure how true this is as my newest PC 627-5 came with a flash chromed MIM hammer.

As has always been the case it sure appears they still build guns with whatever parts are on hand and the only way to be sure what a given gun has is to actually have it in hand and look at it.

 

[Cyrano]

Check out the FAQ's at the top of this forum, and scroll down to the instructions for fixing push off. If not too bad you can do it, or have a qualified gunsmith do it. It is normally the trigger that needs attention.

Thanks, H Richard. I did read the FAQ on push off. I think I'll look for another trigger and see if that cures it. I've been inside a number of Smiths so I shouldn't have any trouble with the replacement if it's a drop-in. However messing around in a revolver's innards with a file or stone is far beyond my ability.