Dusty Miller
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My Speer #14 gives a 45 ACP (230 gr. bullet) load using AA5 as 7.0 min. and 7.8 max. Alliant's data sez 7.8 min. to 8.7 max!! What gives?
Puzzeled by load data.
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Dusty Miller
Member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2006
- Messages
- 195
- Reaction score
- 15
My Speer #14 gives a 45 ACP (230 gr. bullet) load using AA5 as 7.0 min. and 7.8 max. Alliant's data sez 7.8 min. to 8.7 max!! What gives?
Wheelgunner840
Member
Hi Dusty,
I posted a similar thing a while back. Believe me, it's not just AA#5 that has different data from different references, it's just about every powder and caliber. My Lyman 47th shows one thing, and Speer and Hornady show different data for the same thing.
The stated velocities are extremely prone to variation due to the test bbls that they use to obtain their data.
I have had my own chrono data most closely match the powder manufacturers data that is available online. With their stated loads, I am pretty much getting the same velocity as they say I will. The reloading manuals contradict each other quite a bit. When I see conflicting data, I usually start with the lowest to medium loading and see what my chrono results are. I go up or down from there.
WG840
I posted a similar thing a while back. Believe me, it's not just AA#5 that has different data from different references, it's just about every powder and caliber. My Lyman 47th shows one thing, and Speer and Hornady show different data for the same thing.
The stated velocities are extremely prone to variation due to the test bbls that they use to obtain their data.
I have had my own chrono data most closely match the powder manufacturers data that is available online. With their stated loads, I am pretty much getting the same velocity as they say I will. The reloading manuals contradict each other quite a bit. When I see conflicting data, I usually start with the lowest to medium loading and see what my chrono results are. I go up or down from there.
WG840
Steve C
Member
I think you mean that Accurate lists the heavier load as Alliant doesn't make AA5 powder.
The main difference in the loads is they type of bullet, Nosler for the Accurate data and Gold Dots for the Speer data. I don't have a #14 but do have a number 13 and the loads you list are the same in both manuals. There's probably a significant difference in pressures between the bullets. If you compare the 230gr GD vrs the 230 FMJ in Speers manual you will see lower charge weights listed for the GD bullet, at least that's so in the #13.
In addition to endless variations in the components used, temperature, humidity, barrels, pressure measurements methods, and moon phase there is a vast difference in the "philosophy" of those publishing the data. Some loading manual publishers are very conservative in their loads and others are not. I can remember some old Speer manuals that listed some sizzling hot loads. A few years later their manuals were much more conservative. It probably relates to the fear of being sued for publishing "dangerous" information or some such.
FrankD45
Absent Comrade
I don't want to pirate the thread but, SteveC mentioned the difference between bullets. Has anyone determined the pressure difference between FMJ and JHP of the same weight? For example, I looked at the Lyman #48 data for the 40 S&W. They list the Sierra 180 gr JHP with a maximum charge of 5.6 gr of Unique clocked at 916 fps. The Alliant site lists the 180 gr Speer GDHP with a maximum of 6.7 gr and clocking 1000 fps. Thats a pretty significant difference for the same type bullet. Aside from that, what allowance should I make if I substitute a 180 Gr FMJ bullet? As a further complication, many of the loads in the Hornady #7 give the same data for several different bullets. In 40 S&W, while they do not list Unique, they do give the same loads for the 180 gr HP-XTP, HAP, and FMJ-FP. So, what gives? Can you substitute different type bullets or not? I'm confused.
Frank
Frank
Great post! especially for folks like myself who do not have many years of experience.
I find myself checking and reckecking between the online sites and load manuals. There are so many variables.
What makes the differance in loads between a JHP and say a XTP for example?
"Who ya gonna call?"
I find myself checking and reckecking between the online sites and load manuals. There are so many variables.
What makes the differance in loads between a JHP and say a XTP for example?
"Who ya gonna call?"
Dale53
Member
The difference is "several and varied" between loads. With bullets, the actual powder capacity of the case WITH BULLET SEATED can vary considerably with bullets of the same weight. A lessor case capacity will raise pressures significantly. Some bullet designs mandate deeper seating (the "fat" front end may jam in the chamber requiring deeper seating). Jacket material and thickness varies considerably from bullet design to bullet design.
Cast bullets normally can be driven as much as one hundred feet faster than a jacketed conterpart as cast has MUCH less friction than the much harder jackets.
Then you have different primers (they vary all over the place).
It is ALWAYS a good idea to have at least two or three RELIABLE sources before you decide on a trial load. I have come to use a chronograph for final determination. It is not a pressure gun by any means but is a further indication of whether or not things are doing what they should be doing.
Dale53
Cast bullets normally can be driven as much as one hundred feet faster than a jacketed conterpart as cast has MUCH less friction than the much harder jackets.
Then you have different primers (they vary all over the place).
It is ALWAYS a good idea to have at least two or three RELIABLE sources before you decide on a trial load. I have come to use a chronograph for final determination. It is not a pressure gun by any means but is a further indication of whether or not things are doing what they should be doing.
Dale53
Dale53
Member
One thing I might mention. Over the years, I have attended various events and talked with some of the techies at these events. I am speaking of ballisticians for powder companies (not salesmen), people like Bruce Hodgdon (Bruce used to attend the Grand American at Vandalia, Ohio religiously. Bruce was very forthcoming to me on many occasions. He was the first one who actually discussed pressure gun results with me when the Ruger Blawkhawks in .45 Colt first hit the scene. This is information direct from the "Horse's mouth", not urban myth.
The NRA Convention is a wonderful place to reach DIRECTLY the people that REALLY know. If they are approached correctly, they will open up and are veritable fountains of information. Chris Hodgdon and his crew were at the recent Convention in Louisville and I had a good chat with him and his tech crew. These people WANT to keep us out of trouble but will also help us in anyway they can. There were many others there
that were very helpful to me (Sinclair International, Shilen barrels, I could go on and on).
Over the years I have talked to many in this business and almost without exception they have furthered my knowledge base. I am an old man but still am learning and am open to new information on a daily basis.
When the NRA Convention comes to your part of the country, make the effort to get there and plan on a couple or three days. It is well worth the investment in time and money.
Dale53
The NRA Convention is a wonderful place to reach DIRECTLY the people that REALLY know. If they are approached correctly, they will open up and are veritable fountains of information. Chris Hodgdon and his crew were at the recent Convention in Louisville and I had a good chat with him and his tech crew. These people WANT to keep us out of trouble but will also help us in anyway they can. There were many others there
that were very helpful to me (Sinclair International, Shilen barrels, I could go on and on).
Over the years I have talked to many in this business and almost without exception they have furthered my knowledge base. I am an old man but still am learning and am open to new information on a daily basis.
When the NRA Convention comes to your part of the country, make the effort to get there and plan on a couple or three days. It is well worth the investment in time and money.
Dale53
Dale,
What you state about Hodgdon is why I, in my limited experiance prefer their products as compared to say Alliant. Not there is anything wrong with Alliant.
The Hodgdon web site has far more information and the fact that a customer can call and get a live person who actually knows the answer and really wants to help you.
What you state about Hodgdon is why I, in my limited experiance prefer their products as compared to say Alliant. Not there is anything wrong with Alliant.
The Hodgdon web site has far more information and the fact that a customer can call and get a live person who actually knows the answer and really wants to help you.
Dale53
Member
Hodgdon's pretty much illustrates the "American Dream" as far as I am concerned. After WW II, Bruce started up Hodgdon's and it still is largely a family affair. Their name is on the door and they care about their job. Chris is an active shooter (Schuetzen) and many of their employees are, also. That doesn't hurt a thing.
I don't believe that the Hodgdon's were raised with a silver spoon in their mouth, either. I rather suspect that they learned a bit about the value of "work" while growing up. That doesn't hurt, either.
I have great respect for those good people. I am not close to them (either geographically nor personally) but I have met and talked with them over the years and have ALWAYS been impressed with their knowledge, sincerity, and willingness to help.
That isn't often seen in the corporate world, today.
Basically, they do what they SHOULD do, and since almost no one else IS, they stand out
And GEE!, they are successful! See how that works?!
Dale53
I don't believe that the Hodgdon's were raised with a silver spoon in their mouth, either. I rather suspect that they learned a bit about the value of "work" while growing up. That doesn't hurt, either.
I have great respect for those good people. I am not close to them (either geographically nor personally) but I have met and talked with them over the years and have ALWAYS been impressed with their knowledge, sincerity, and willingness to help.
That isn't often seen in the corporate world, today.
Basically, they do what they SHOULD do, and since almost no one else IS, they stand out
And GEE!, they are successful! See how that works?!
Dale53
Pretty amazing isn't it. I deal with a few other companies that I feel offer extrordinary customer service. Midway is pretty darn good. Drs Foster/Smith for pet supplies, of course S&W and probaly the best of them all, LL Bean. Maybe a few bucks more but you know what kind of no bull service and products you will get. Not to steal this thread but I have a LL Bean story that would blow you away.
The best add on you can get when reloading is a chronograph. Even the cheapest will make your life much easier.
For 40 years that I've been reloading I've never found two manuals with the same load and have never produce the exact same load dynamics.
Temperature, barrel length etc play a lot in it.
With a chrono you can test your load to see how close is really is to what the manufactuer says. Recently I found that my new bullets with posted loads were traveling 100 fps on average below the several manuals I use.
Hope this helps. Start with a light load and work up if you have a problem stop. Remember you can load too light as well as too hot and each can hurt your weapon and you.
For 40 years that I've been reloading I've never found two manuals with the same load and have never produce the exact same load dynamics.
Temperature, barrel length etc play a lot in it.
With a chrono you can test your load to see how close is really is to what the manufactuer says. Recently I found that my new bullets with posted loads were traveling 100 fps on average below the several manuals I use.
Hope this helps. Start with a light load and work up if you have a problem stop. Remember you can load too light as well as too hot and each can hurt your weapon and you.
In my experience, bullet seating depth is very important when it comes to performance (primarily with auto cartridges). Many times over thee years, I have seen articles writen in the major magazines with extensive data for a particular caliber listing different bullets and powder charges, primers, etc, with no mention of over all length.
As I recall, I once had an old Speer manual that addressed the guns they used for test results in their manual. I believe they had three six inch model 19 S&W revolvers that varied as much as 200 fps. Dean
As I recall, I once had an old Speer manual that addressed the guns they used for test results in their manual. I believe they had three six inch model 19 S&W revolvers that varied as much as 200 fps. Dean
Wheelgunner840
Member
Absolutely! I do not know how I would do without one. When starting a new batch of reloads that will have a different bullet style or weight, or different powder type or charge, I always take the first 20 or so to the range to shoot over my chrono and also test for accuracy off a bench rest.
There is nothing worse, save for blowing up your gun, than having to pull apart 100s of rounds. I have saved myself a lot of grief by discovering that a particular load was too hot or too mild before loading up a ton of them.
I have also found that my data is almost always 50-100 fps slower than the published data found in reloading manuals. The data that most often matches my results very closely is the on-line data straight from the powder manufacturer websites.
WG840
Dale53
Member
Back when the NRA was more of a service organization than a political organization they had really useful data.
They would run pressure tests on loads using a pressure barrel and gave you parallel information with a revolver. You could actually see the difference between a closed pressure barrel and an actual revolver (they gave barrel length,also). I remember years ago they took a NEW S&W .357 Magnum and cut the barrel off inch by inch and recorded the change in velocities. THAT was useful to know.
I use a chronograph from time to time (Oehler 35) and have learned much from this. When using a chronograph you want to be sure that you are not trying to match the velocity of a closed pressure barrel. That could lead to serious "over pressure" loads. You might get more than you bargained for. However, they are a very useful tool, I am a big fan.
Dale53
They would run pressure tests on loads using a pressure barrel and gave you parallel information with a revolver. You could actually see the difference between a closed pressure barrel and an actual revolver (they gave barrel length,also). I remember years ago they took a NEW S&W .357 Magnum and cut the barrel off inch by inch and recorded the change in velocities. THAT was useful to know.
I use a chronograph from time to time (Oehler 35) and have learned much from this. When using a chronograph you want to be sure that you are not trying to match the velocity of a closed pressure barrel. That could lead to serious "over pressure" loads. You might get more than you bargained for. However, they are a very useful tool, I am a big fan.
Dale53
Paul5388
US Veteran
One thing to consider about chronographs, the first shot is a commitment on your part, regardless of what the chrony says. That actually means the chrony is worthless in letting you know your load is over spec, since it's after the fact, i.e. you have to shoot that overload to know it's an overload.
40+ years ago, the use of a chrony was pretty well restricted to magazines (gun rags) and bullet/powder manufacturers. The handloader depended on the manual to give good guidance for load selection, but the rest was up to the individual.
Things really haven't changed from that scenario. It's still a matter of depending on good guidance and worrying about velocities as an afterthought.
What is good guidance? Well, I'm not sure that's what is available now. With the plethora of components, and each combination giving different results, it's mandatory to follow the "recipe" exactly. The problem is, different lots, whether powder, primer or other components, deliver different results. Any deviation from what was used in the data will yield different results, so you're still on your own.
The best way to approach any data that you change, is to drop the charge 10% and work back up toward that maximum load.
To clock the velocity of an inaccurate load is a waste of time. Find what's accurate and then clock it to see if it meets your criteria.
40+ years ago, the use of a chrony was pretty well restricted to magazines (gun rags) and bullet/powder manufacturers. The handloader depended on the manual to give good guidance for load selection, but the rest was up to the individual.
Things really haven't changed from that scenario. It's still a matter of depending on good guidance and worrying about velocities as an afterthought.
What is good guidance? Well, I'm not sure that's what is available now. With the plethora of components, and each combination giving different results, it's mandatory to follow the "recipe" exactly. The problem is, different lots, whether powder, primer or other components, deliver different results. Any deviation from what was used in the data will yield different results, so you're still on your own.
The best way to approach any data that you change, is to drop the charge 10% and work back up toward that maximum load.
To clock the velocity of an inaccurate load is a waste of time. Find what's accurate and then clock it to see if it meets your criteria.
What you say is true. The problem I think many of us have is that the load data is not consistant. In many cases it differs from one manual revison, author, company, on line site etc, as well as the factors you mention. Even if I reduce a charge by 10% I would have no idea if it is good bad or indifferent. I can perceive very hot loads to a mild target load but other than that I would need a string of data from a chrono.Better yet some one needs to come up with a "gun owner" version of a pressure guage.
I'd like to get a chrono. Is there a good one that is not to expensive? Do you need all kinds of adaptors, stands etc?
FrankD45
Absent Comrade
Paul, I don't really agree that a chrony is not needed until after you find that magic load that meets your accuracy criteria. Typically I will start my string at a safe level and then increase the charge a tenth or so at a time, using the chrony at each step. As mentioned, you won't know you are in trouble until after you are in trouble. The point of the chrony is to start with a safe load which becomes your bench mark as you increase charges looking for the performance you want. The value in a chrony beyond knowing your velocity is the other data you get, Specifically the Standard Deviation can give an indication that pressure is spiking.
Just my opinion,
Frank
Just my opinion,
Frank
durco
Member
Dusty: I know just what you mean. I read the various reloading manuals and then wonder if the gun is going to explode, or the bullets are going to dribble out the end of the barrel....
Mike
Mike
