Q re the design of the third generation S&W .40's

azswiftwing

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I collect mostly K-frames from the 1950's and early 1960's so I'm not very knowledgeable about semi-auto pistols. However, I have a Model 469 which I like shooting, and I also have several "Shorty 40s" which I also like shooting. When reading about the .40 S&W pistols, however, the comment is sometimes made that the .40 and .45 pistols were all based on frames that were designed to shoot 9 mm, and as a consequence the larger caliber semi-autos are more prone to break or fail. I haven't had any such bad luck with my Shorty 40s and I'm thinking about buying a Shorty 45, if I can find one. I'd like to know your thoughts about the reliability of the larger caliber S&W semi-autos (other than you should be shooting a 1911). Thanks to all who respond.
 
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This has always been a subject that I believe has been missed by many but I have always been cognizant of it myself. I come from the corner of being a long time 10mm cartridge fan going back to the 1980's and it's not coincidence that "10mm guys" and ".40cal guys" had kind of knocked heads a bit.

The first two successfully mass-produced .40cal guns on the market were the Glock 22 and the S&W 4006. In the case of both of these pistols, you (basically) had a 9mm sized frame running a 9mm sized slide and a 9mm sized barrel, but the barrel itself (bore and chamber) were opened up, metal removed, and necessarily larger holes left behind. The .40 S&W runs the same pressure as the 9mm (a hot round all on it's own at 35k psi) and it does all of this while being effectively shoe-horned in to a gun wholly designed around a smaller diameter cartridge & bullet of lower mass.

And in the completely opposite way in every possible direction...
The two offerings in 10mm from the same two gun makers were the Glock 20 and the 1006, and both of these pistols took a gun of larger frame and larger slide with more mass, and a larger barrel with a larger bore and chamber and instead ran a smaller diameter cartridge with a smaller diameter bullet of slightly lower mass.

So the 10mm pistols use the larger .45 frame and the larger, heavier .45 slide and the .45-sized barrel which now has MORE metal around both the chamber and bore than it does for the .45 ACP for which it was designed. It is worth noting that the max pressure expectation has been increased from the mid-range 21k psi of the .45 to the stout 37.5k psi max of the 10mm.

WHEW! All of the above for me to say that yes, I have always been firmly of the camp that the .40 S&W designed pistols are running the ragged edge of what "should" have been done all the while sitting next to the 10mm pistols that show us easily and clearly exactly -HOW- it should have been done.

As I simply refused to buy or own .40cal pistols in their heyday, I was only somewhat aware of the associated problems. I can say that while most all of us (at least all of us that were shooting and handloading in the early 1990's) know very very well about all the trouble Glock had with kabooms in the early generations of the Glock 22/23, I can't sit here and tell you that I was aware of a lot of S&W 40xx pistols doing the same thing.

But we should accept that it was more a "perfect storm" of both pistol design AND cartridge design rather than simply the pistols themselves. There exists precious small room for error in the .40 S&W cartridge, especially for handloaders, and in my (experienced) opinion, the most likely genuine culprit in .40 S&W reload "disaster" has been exactly the unintended and wholly unnoticed occurrence of bullet setback in the case.

My argument: the .40 S&W cartridge leaves -NO- room for error and when the bullet gets accidentally and unknowingly pushed deeper in to the cartridge case and discharged, the pressure rockets to an alarming level and catastrophe (or near catastrophe) happens -AND- (and this is a very import part of my argument!), the evidence is instantly ERASED and it's not quite so easy to see or understand WHY it happened.

You will never see the bullet setback and the greatly reduced combustion space in the aftermath of a .40cal over pressure event.

These days... I actually do make .40cal ammo at my bench. It took me YEARS to get on board with the idea. I run .40 in only two handguns these days... a very late model 4006 and my Glock 29 (10mm) running a KKM .40 S&W barrel.

I believe there are ways to mitigate the inherent minefield of the .40cal cartridge at the load bench, and I keep those in mind when I make my ammo.

Sincere apologies for the length of my post. :D
 
Just to add a bit, the single stack 4013, 4014, 4053 and 4054 pistols are built on a the .45 frame...the same frame as the 4516. I like the double stack guns quite well and have never felt very concerned about them being particularly fragile but am even more fond of the models listed above...they fit my hand quite nicely and are pleasant to shoot. To date I have not had any problems with any of my S&W .40 guns. I shoot factory ammo only.

I have heard of frame cracks in the alloy frame .40 pistols but not in the steel guns. I also believe that in most cases of cracked frames in the alloy guns, these were city owned police guns that received somewhat hard use with minimal maintenance. In any gun, recoil springs need to be changed periodically, and that is not a frequent occurrence with department owned police guns in most departments I am familiar with.

.45 acp (being a substantially less powerful cartridge :-) should put less stress on any given gun than the same gun in a .40 S&W caliber
 
Yes,most 40S&W 3rd gens were built off the 9mm platform,except for the 4013,4014,4053,4054,CS40 & CS40D that were built on a larger platform. The 6 listed are single-stackers and are popular(because of their 'beefier' barrels) for converting to 10mm.
 

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Yes. Typically the 40 came from 9mm size firearms. Their issues were worked out decades ago. In theory they will break earlier but I don't think you shoot that much. You're talking tens of thousands of rounds. But if you shoot 1:1 9/40 the 9 will last longer

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
Wow, those pictures detail PRECISELY what I was trying to use words to describe. Those are fantastic pictures that tell a great story.
 
I have personally encountered 2 alloy frame 40 S&W third gens with cracked frames. These were not police guns, one was a 4013TSW and the other was a 4053TSW. Both were pre rail guns, and did not look "shot out" or high round count.

I choose to not shoot my 4513TSW 6 round pre rail that much anymore for the reason above. This goes the same for my 4040PD. The CS40 gets the most range and carry duty, since I've never heard of a CS40/CS45 frame crack.

Hope this helps
SVT28
 
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I think, to be technically accurate, only the 4040PD was built on a 9mm frame--the single stack compact frame. The 4006 etc. were based on the 5900 series frames, but the frame was modified (strengthened) substantially, and slides will not interchange. Somewhere around here there are some posts that address the 4006 revisions...
 
I think, to be technically accurate, only the 4040PD was built on a 9mm frame--the single stack compact frame. The 4006 etc. were based on the 5900 series frames, but the frame was modified (strengthened) substantially, and slides will not interchange. Somewhere around here there are some posts that address the 4006 revisions...

Absolutely correct here. The frame differences between my 6904 and my 4013 TSW and very noticeable. there is enough extra beef in the 4013 frame that holsters will NOT interchange between it and my 3900/6900's but the PC Shorty will. Same differences are seen in the frame of my 5943 and my 4043 and again the holsters again will not interchange because of the substantial frame beefing on the 40's. Barrels are thinner in the 40's on the smaller platform than 10mm's but sammi pressures are comparable to 9mm pressures so should not be an issue on the .40 as long as you stay at sammi guidelines on loads.
I own a 4043, PC Shorty .40 and a pre rail 4013 TSW as well as a 3914, 6904 and 5943 as well as a 1066 so know these pistols quite well and shoot all of them often. The CS 40 and single stack 4013 are both on the larger .45 frames so look to them for 10mm conversions only with 3rd gen .40's. My .40 3rd gens get shot regularly with defensive loads and I have never had any hint of a reliabilty issue with any of them over at the least 2000 combined rounds now.
My 2 most carried are the 4013 TSW and the 5943.
 
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My department's first issue semiautomatic duty pistol was the S&W 4006 in 1992 or so. I retired from there in 2014 and there were still a fair number of them in service. The CHP adopted them in 1991 and still issues them, and they shoot monthly. It is the gun that was designed WITH the cartridge's development, with the entire point being to put as large a cartridge as possible into a pistol no bigger externally than the double-column 9mm. The 4006 is as strong as it needs to be, and quite durable. As mentioned above, the frame, slide and other pressure-bearing parts are much beefier than the 9mm guns. The gun makers that had durability problems with their 9mm-based .40's had them because they didn't spend enough time adapting their smaller design to the bigger, new cartridge.
 
In this debate/discussion about the .40 S&W being built on the smaller 9mm platform... why is it that the same concerns are not present regarding the practice of using conversion barrels in a 9mm pistol to convert it to a.357 Sig, which is basically a necked down 10mm, with pressures running at 40,000 versus 35,000 for the .40 S&W?

And in revolvers... why is it that a .41 or .44 magnum (M57/M29) with thinner cylinder and barrel walls, are being successfully built with wide acceptance, on a .38/.357 (M27) platform?

Just curious...
 
This is an interesting thread.
A few months ago, I picked up a practically unfired, lnib 1992 4006 r3. And then I finally got my hands on a 1006 (mid 1990)
I found it amusing how different the wall thicknesses were in the chambers. Especially considering the close relation.. Now I know why.
As far as the frame and slide. You'll be hard pressed to find anything more sturdy than a 4006. You know you're holding a gun.
 
When reading about the .40 S&W pistols, however, the comment is sometimes made that the .40 and .45 pistols were all based on frames that were designed to shoot 9 mm, and as a consequence the larger caliber semi-autos are more prone to break or fail.

While not addressed directly, I'm sure you can see now that the .45s are not based on 9mm frames and are in fact designed from the ground up for the .45.
 
I have a 4013 TSW with no rail. I have seen no problems yet. I don't shoot it all the time but I do shoot my 411 .40 quite a lot.
 
Thanks to all. I'm trying to find my calipers, except then I'll have to take the my Shorty 40 apart which is not the easiest thing to do. My Shorties are double-stacked, and both are Performance Center guns (maybe all Shorty 40 were). The one I shoot is a Mark 3s. I also have a black one with a steel slide. I think that was from the last 2,000 that S&W made--I don't know if it was ever called a Mark 4. It is a beautiful gun, maybe not shot much--I'm debating whether to shoot it. Again thanks for the info, and you've given me some ideas about prospective purchases.
 

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