Question about 44 DA first model

[Kyle M.mi]

Hello all. A local shop has a 6" S&W .44 DA first model chambered in .44 Russian that I am considering buying if it's still available in a couple of weeks. First question, I haven't found any good serial # info. If someone could give me an approximate date for serial #380xx that would be great. Second question, this particular specimen was unfortunately reblued at some point, it doesn't look too recent but I'm not expert and don't really know. I guess it could have been done last week or 50 years ago. Now knowing that this completely ruins collector value what would be a good price for a mechanically sound reblued 44 DA? They're asking $600 and this is not the type of place that takes kindly to haggling, I've attempted it in the past and got the ol "The price on the tag is the price you pay." line. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Kyle.

 

[murphydog]

The ship dates on these are all over the calendar, but these are all classified as antiques and the number suggests a later gun, perhaps sold well after 1900.

I think it is a fair price for one in good mechanical condition, even if refinished. Have a look at the left lower side of the grip frame for a date code that may indicate it was redone at the factory...and as usual, we need photos! Hope this is helpful.

 

[rct269]

I'll say it completely ruins collector value depending upon who did it. A factory refinish is tolerable. Any other very high quality refinish is also tolerable---just not as tolerable. Now, if when you say "unfortunately reblued", you mean you can tell it just by looking at it---flats not flat, rounds not round, lettering washed out to one degree or another, and a host of other ills inflicted by Bubba, then drive on. The price suggests it's a fugitive from a junk yard---assuming the seller knows his business. A top of the line specimen is said to be worth $4-7,000 ($7,000 being a scientific guesstimate for as new in the box) proffered by the authors of the SCSW).

A not so scientific wild guess puts this around the turn of the century.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Kyle M.mi]

Here's a couple photos from the website of the shop that has it. I haven't been there to see it yet, but I called and asked about it on Wednesday and was told that it is mechanically sound and that the patent dates on the barrel are much more legible than the S&W logo. Which looks heavily buffed to my eyes. I've seen worse refinishes but I've seen better as well. I'm assuming it's a 44 DA First Model based on the .44 Russian caliber. But the fact that they also have it marked .44 DA Frontier has me wondering, who knows maybe it is a Frontier and is .44-40. It's hard to tell because this particular shop has been known to mismark things. My main interest in it is as an interesting historical piece and occasional shooter that won't cost me an arm and a leg like a nice all original specimen.

 

[rct269]

Okay---you have THE fever. That can be a problem. The first alternative solution to any problem is to do nothing---and maybe the problem will go away.

Your problem is not likely to go away--more likely to get worse. So let's explore a couple of alternative solutions.

#1. Spend the $600 (plus tax---which hereabouts will be about $60). Go home and be happy. Alas, you won't be happy because you will quickly come to the conclusion you've spent $660 for a $300 gun.

#2. This is a variation on the do nothing solution, but it's actually an action with a goal in mind. Do not buy this gun. Do save $660. Then save some more money. Keep saving until you can't stand it anymore. Then tell yourself you've stood it this long without any debilitating effects, and by golly you can do it again---and do it again. Repeat this treatment as often as necessary to accumulate a nice wad of gun money----and then go blow it on a NICE gun---and be happy for a looooooooong time (during which you're back on this saving kick for another NICE gun). A NICE gun is one which will appreciate in value rather than depreciate. The value of this gun will fall like a rock---a big one!! Actually, big rocks fall at the same speed as little ones, but you get the idea---I hope.

Ralph Tremaine

Be advised of a potential pitfall: The washing machine get's bad sick---followed quickly by the dryer. The Boss Lady tells you she needs new ones---but she gives you an alternative solution. You can take the dirty clothes to the laundromat until such time as you see the wisdom of doing things her way.

 

[Kyle M.mi]

Okay---you have THE fever. That can be a problem. The first alternative solution to any problem is to do nothing---and maybe the problem will go away.

Your problem is not likely to go away--more likely to get worse. So let's explore a couple of alternative solutions.

#1. Spend the $600 (plus tax---which hereabouts will be about $60). Go home and be happy. Alas, you won't be happy because you will quickly come to the conclusion you've spent $660 for a $300 gun.

#2. This is a variation on the do nothing solution, but it's actually an action with a goal in mind. Do not buy this gun. Do save $660. Then save some more money. Keep saving until you can't stand it anymore. Then tell yourself you've stood it this long without any debilitating effects, and by golly you can do it again---and do it again. Repeat this treatment as often as necessary to accumulate a nice wad of gun money----and then go blow it on a NICE gun---and be happy for a looooooooong time (during which you're back on this saving kick for another NICE gun). A NICE gun is one which will appreciate in value rather than depreciate. The value of this gun will fall like a rock---a big one!! Actually, big rocks fall at the same speed as little ones, but you get the idea---I hope.

Ralph Tremaine

Be advised of a potential pitfall: The washing machine get's bad sick---followed quickly by the dryer. The Boss Lady tells you she needs new ones---but she gives you an alternative solution. You can take the dirty clothes to the laundromat until such time as you see the wisdom of doing things her way.

Thanks. There is so much stuff on my list of possible buys that ruling this one out is really no big deal. I can't see myself saving up for a nicer one though because collecting isn't really my thing. I'm a habitual seller/trader who shoots what he buys so I try to make sure I don't over pay and hopefully under pay when I buy guns. I'll be ruling this one out and looking for something else.

 

[opoefc]

First - Find out what the gun's caliber really is. If it's a 44-40 Frontier, and the gun's bore is nice, you have a good shooter, but not a collectable, and the price is in the higher end of the ball park, perhaps, but not out of line for a good Cowboy Shooter S&W. If the gun is a .44 Russian caliber, $600 is stretching it a bit. A .44 DA in the 38,000 range was made in Aug -Sept. 1899, according to the factory production logs. Ed.

 

[iby]

Isn't 38000 to high for a 44/40?

 

[deadin]

Isn't 38000 to high for a 44/40?

That's what I thought. I believe they topped out around 15,000 or so.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

First off, the cylinder on a 44-40 44 Double Action was 1 9/16" long. This is 1/8" longer than the standard 1 7/16" cylinder that most 44 Russian Double Actions were equipped with. The cylinder had to be 1 9/16" long to chamber either 44-40 or 38-40. Compare your photos to these two 44 Russian 44 Double Actions. Compare the proportions of the cylinders to the frames. Secondly according to SCSW, the SN range for the 44-40 version was 1-15340.

Peering into the chamber of a 44 Russian there will be a visible step in the chamber where the chamber narrows down to the chamber throat. But both sections of the chamber will be cylindrical, there will be no taper. In addition to the step for the chamber throat, a 44-40 chamber, or a 38-40 chamber will have a noticeable taper for the tapered cartridge case.

The gun in the photos you provided has definitely been refinished. The hammer and trigger are blued, S&W never blued hammers or triggers, they were always case hardened.

This 44 Double Action has been refinished. Notice the blued hammer and trigger. The old dime is a replacement that I had put on for the front sight.

On this side, the edge of the side plate was rounded over by over polishing. The joint should be almost invisible.

Notice how the outline of the side plate is almost invisible on this nickel plated target model.

All told, for what it is, $600 is probably not too bad a price for that gun. Of course, check to see that it functions properly. Also check to see how good the lockup is at the barrel latch. Many of these guns shot loose over time and there will be a bit of play at the latch when the barrel is latched. Ideally there should be zero play. Check the chambers and bores for pitting. It is rare to find a gun of this age that does not have some pitting in the chambers and/or bore. But I have found that as long as the rifling is still strong, it will still put a good spin on the bullet and the gun will be a good shooter.

I notice what looks to be a repaired crack on the right grip. The old hard rubber grips got brittle over time. Be very careful removing the grips, if you pry at them they can break. And if that repair is not sound it might break there again.

Lastly, and there are those who will disagree with me, I only shoot these old Top Breaks with ammunition loaded with Black Powder.

 

[model3sw]

The gun is improperly tagged here. It is a .44 Double Action First. The term "Frontier" applies only to the .44-40 version of this same revolver. So, it cannot be both a Frontier and be chambered in .44 Russian, as label incorrectly indicates.

If it is mechanically excellent, you're likely OK at the $600 but will hold no collector value. It's a clean shooter.

Also, the 1st model .44 DAs (whether a Frontier or other) had soft hammers and awfully clunky actions. There is one click back for safety and to open top break and only one more all the way back to lock for a single action shot. With the cylinder double checked to be empty, close the revolver, pull back the hammer to the fullest extent, then try to push it forward with your thumbs. If it falls forward ... this is typical.

The hammer can be sharpened with an India stone just once to sharpen it and remain in proper working order. If it had ever been filed the hammer is junk.

I found many in well used condition. Also found many in nicer condition but still with the same affliction. When these were just old, useless, guns ... if they malfunctioned they very often got a back yard gunsmith job by which the hammer / sear engagement would be filed on the hammer. Once a file is taken to the stop on the hammer ... the hammer is junk.

In summation, if it is in "excellent" mechanical condition, you're OK at the $600, I think. And, you'll have lots of fun with it.

Oh, don't expect it to shoot anything like a New Model 3 or you will be terribly disappointed. The New Model 3 is the premier large caliber top-break manufactured by S&W albeit they should have kept the Schofield patent latch / catch assembly but were too cheap to pay the 50 cents per revolver for use of the patented, hardened steel (and serviceable) Schofield latch / catch assembly.