Question about lockwork on early HE models

[Kamerer]

I opened my .455 HE for he first time tonight, to see if there was anything inside I should clean/de-gunk - never had it open before.

It was remarkably clean. Three things struck me:

1) The CCH on the hammer and trigger inside the sideplate, which survived perfectly, was spectacular. It was mostly gone on the exposed area.

2) In addition to the hand and rebound slide, cylinder stop, sear, and bolt were a remarkable high-polish stainless steel.

3) The side plate fit was amazing - a flawless fit like nothing I've seen a post ware revolver (I've opened maybe a dozen total, so not a huge sample).


So:

a) I had not seen those three components so wonderfully polished like that before.

b) I thought SS was just entering commercial usage about this time and was surprised to see it used so much, and modern ones I'd see were not so highly finished.

Is anyone familiar with the history of the steel used in the assembly of early HE's? Or has this possibly seen repair/replacement later?

 

[Kamerer]

I opened my .455 HE for he first time tonight, to see if there was anything inside I should clean/de-gunk - never had it open before.

It was remarkably clean. Three things struck me:

1) The CCH on the hammer and trigger inside the sideplate, which survived perfectly, was spectacular. It was mostly gone on the exposed area.

2) In addition to the hand and rebound slide, cylinder stop, sear, and bolt were a remarkable high-polish stainless steel.

3) The side plate fit was amazing - a flawless fit like nothing I've seen a post ware revolver (I've opened maybe a dozen total, so not a huge sample).


So:

a) I had not seen those three components so wonderfully polished like that before.

b) I thought SS was just entering commercial usage about this time and was surprised to see it used so much, and modern ones I'd see were not so highly finished.

Is anyone familiar with the history of the steel used in the assembly of early HE's? Or has this possibly seen repair/replacement later?

 

[handejector]

K,
What makes you think they are stainless? Carbon steel, which is what those parts are, can be polished to mirror brightness.
The high polish you see is on those parts is typical for that model.
No parts were stainless before the Model 60.

 

[Kamerer]

I suppose I was thrown off by the super high polish and spotlessness. They are mirror bright.

I was guessing no carbon steel could have made it 92 years without some oxidation.

Like I said, I just found this weird, so I was asking. So they are just polished carbon steel that stayed in that condition? The rest of the lockwork is very clean, too, but blued.

 

[handejector]

So they are just polished carbon steel that stayed in that condition?

Yep. I have marvelled at them myself.
(this will show how easily entertained I am)

- Take two of those old rebound slides, wipe them down, lightly oil them, and put the polished surfaces together. Sometimes, you cannot pull them apart- you have to slide them.
THAT is SMOOTH and FLAT.

 

[Kamerer]

Wow.

I might have to open up the sideplate again and do some more marvelling!

Thanks so much for your clarification. I just marvel at the fit and finish on this gun. I see several more early HEs in my future.

I have a 1946 transition M&P I have never opened- may have to go in there tomorrow!

so the SCW&W isn't explicit about this, but I gather through elimination the first "N" frame was the .44 HE triple lock?

 

[handejector]

I have a 1946 transition M&P I have never opened- may have to go in there tomorrow!

It will be well made, BUT, it won't look like the 455. Remember, essentially, you'll be looking at WW II production parts!

I gather through elimination the first "N" frame was the .44 HE triple lock?

Yep.

 

[mikepriwer]

No parts were stainless before the Model 60.

Lee

Well, you are close, but you would not like the cigar.

The first stainless guns were 5 model 15's, made in 1960. They are serial-numbered right
around K400,000 .

Regards, Mie Priwer

 

[handejector]

The first stainless guns were 5 model 15's, made in 1960. They are serial-numbered right
around K400,000 .

Never heard about them.
C'mon, Mike, tell us the whole story. AND, show us some pics- I know you have at least one or two of 'em!

 

[mikepriwer]

Lee

I do have one, as a matter of fact.

These 5 guns were the first attempt to use stainless steel. They were made
in 1960, and were serial-numbered in the K-frame series. They are model-stamped
as model 15. They look just like a carbon-steel model 15, but are stainless steel.

As near as I can tell, the idea was to evaluate their resistance to corrosion.
The one I have was delivered, by whomever was president, to some police commissioner
in the islands off Florida. He wrote a glowing report about it, and that success
was what brought S&W into the stainless age.

Seems like Robby took a picture of it a while ago. If I can find it, I will
add it to this post. I'm away from the guns right now - I can get more details
out of the letter when I get back later this week.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[Kamerer]

Wow, Mike, that would be very neat to see. I have read about this, I guess in the SCS&W or somewhere. It resonated with me for two reasons, I really like stainless guns, and I also really like 15s and 67s - have one of each. Never thought I'd see one of these five guns or even hear of where they might be.

 

[mikepriwer]

My erstwhile photographer took pictures, but of the wrong stainless gun. But -they are good
pictures, even though they probably belong on the post-WW2 section.

This gun is the very first model 65. It is the only one like it. Its a K-22, and is
a stainless version of a model 18. Its serial number is in the 1K40000 range, and its a
1971 or 1972 gun. I can get more details, but it is the only survivor. I recall that it was
intended to be a production item, but for some reason(s), the plan was abandoned, all the rest
of the guns were distroyed, and this is the only survivor. Model 65 was subsequently assigned
to another gun.

Guess we ought to send something to Robby, just to cheer him up.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[Guest]

My erstwhile photographer took pictures, but of the wrong stainless gun.

Maybe you need to pay him more....

just to cheer him up.

Mike,
If you send me X34, that would help. It would pull me out of my Monday blues....

 

[mikepriwer]

If I make it through the Siskiyou pass tomorrow, I'll think about it.
Probably not for very long, but I will think about it.

Regards, Mike

 

[Guest]

I'll think about it.

Thanks Mike, it would mean a lot to me...

For you others that might be interested in X34, here it is....

What I know of this prototype is that it was the experimental unit put out by the factory to test the concept of having a 4" companian gun to the K22 Masterpiece (original Combat Masterpiece?). The only legit 4" that I've seen with a patridge sight. This gun also has a very unique hammer stud, it's not staked in but is a floating pin, as you pull the hammer back, the pin rotates with it. Interesting.....
When I first saw this gun, Mike had it out in the garage sitting in one of the cabinets he bestowed upon me, just out there in the cold sitting as an example of how the adjustable bars were designed into his cabinet. Poor thing was all alone in the cold, I've been hoping to give it a warm home ever since.
One of these days.....

Hey Lee, note the "one line" transition frame....

 

[handejector]

Hey Lee, note the "one line" transition frame....

I see that, but it doesn't qualify for the term "transition" in my opinion, since ALL frames were ONE-line till 1948 or so, meaning they were producing NEW frames AFTER WW II that were one-line marked, like this frame.

GREAT gun- looks like they simply cut a Masterpiece off 2", or is that barrel heavier than normal??

 

[mikepriwer]

I think the barrel was just cut. The gun went to, I think, the head of engineering,
or maybe the plant superintentant. I'd have to check the letter to be sure.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[Guest]

GREAT gun- looks like they simply cut a Masterpiece off 2", or is that barrel heavier than normal??

Isn't that what all the early Combat Masterpiece guns are anyway? I mean, all the barrel blanks are the same and the roll marking is (generally) in the same spot. I'm wondering why that would be a consideration, maybe a transition discussion coming on here??

 

[handejector]

Originally posted by SmithNut:

GREAT gun- looks like they simply cut a Masterpiece off 2", or is that barrel heavier than normal??

Isn't that what all the early Combat Masterpiece guns are anyway? I mean, all the barrel blanks are the same and the roll marking is (generally) in the same spot. I'm wondering why that would be a consideration, maybe a transition discussion coming on here??

SmithNut,
I was speaking more to the heavy contour- Combat Masterpieces in 38 and 22 cal have a lighter, tapered barrel compared to the 6" Masterpieces.

Interesting, too, is that it has the pre-war/early transitional style head on the ejector rod.

Take care,

Steve Bryson

Steve,
I believe all the earliest K 38 and K 22 Masterpieces had the large knob. Then, they appear mixed by serial number with the straight rods, probably using up the old parts.

 

[Kamerer]

Not to detract from the turn in the thread, but I have another construction question about the early N frame HE's. I opened the .455 again tonight, to marvel at the polishing on the slide and sear as Lee suggested I do.

Just kidding, but I did open it, to degrease and de-gunk the internals, and install a lanyard swivel (Tip: Ace Hardware stock blued steel crimp pins for twenty or so cents that work great). I guess I'd never taken the cylinder off before, because when I did, a steel locating stud and a spring popped out of a hole in the very bottom of the yoke. There's a corresponding indent on the inside of the frame for it to index into when the cylinder is open and 90 degrees to the frame. I never "felt" it index when working the cylinder before, and I didn't know about this construction detail.

When did it start, what guns was it done on, and when was it discontinued, and what did the factory call this feature and name the parts?