Question about original 44 Russian cartridges

[Win38-55]

I've been pouring through Charles Pate's Smith & Wesson American Model and am surprised at the variety of cartridges that were available for the 44 Russian. Some had 246 grain bullets, others had 255 grain bullets. There were both black powder cartridges and later on, smokeless cartridges made for the 44 Russian (to my amazement). I cannot find, however, much in the way of information regarding number of grains of black powder used in the various cartridges, or velocities.

Question: Has anyone here fired some original 44 Russian black powder cartridges over a chronograph? or taken an original 44 Russian black powder cartridge apart to weigh both the powder charge and the bullet? I bought some Goex FFFg this past week to make some chronograph measurements, but I'd love to compare them with results from original cartridges. It would be helpful to know also the cartridge company and the barrel length.

 

[Win38-55]

I've been pouring through Charles Pate's Smith & Wesson American Model and am surprised at the variety of cartridges that were available for the 44 Russian. Some had 246 grain bullets, others had 255 grain bullets. There were both black powder cartridges and later on, smokeless cartridges made for the 44 Russian (to my amazement). I cannot find, however, much in the way of information regarding number of grains of black powder used in the various cartridges, or velocities.

Question: Has anyone here fired some original 44 Russian black powder cartridges over a chronograph? or taken an original 44 Russian black powder cartridge apart to weigh both the powder charge and the bullet? I bought some Goex FFFg this past week to make some chronograph measurements, but I'd love to compare them with results from original cartridges. It would be helpful to know also the cartridge company and the barrel length.

 

[Timothy]

According to my 1878 winchester catalog they list a 235gr bullet with 23gr powder. My 1885 hartley and graham catalog lists a 256gr with 23gr powder. Hope this helps.

 

[Win38-55]

Thanks. That's new info for me. I keep coming up with 23 grains of black powder wherever I look. The 1896 Winchester catalogue offered the 44 Russian in both black powder and in smokeless. The black powder load was 23 grains under a 255 grain bullet. The smokeless load also lists a 255 grain bullet. Unfortunately, no velocities are listed.

I found another old table that lists a 44 Russian cartridge with a 246 grain bullet at 680 fps. No mention of whether it is smokeless or black, of of the manufacturer. that velocity seems very low.

Mike Venturino mentions an old published black powder velocity of 755 fps with a 246 grain bullet and 23 grains of black powder.

I'm planning to see if I can cram 23 grains of FFg and of FFFg into some cases and chrono the loads. I'll probably have to not seat the bullet in very far in order to accommodate all that powder. Trouble is, that won't really tell me what original loads did, because neither FFg nor FFFg is necessarily the same type of powder used in the 1870's. However, it should give me a ballpark figure for 23 grains.

 

[Timothy]

Remember they probably didnt know how fast they were going either. Most of the velocity refrences I've seen have been regarding penetration in pine boards. A 1950 winchester catalog lists a 246gr going 770fps penetrating 4 boards from a 6 1/2" barrel. I believe that to be smokless since they also show a special with identical stats. I'm also meticulous about recreating period ammo and have always been able to fit the given number of grains in the shell solid head or otherwise. I used to worry about velocity but now enjoy the standpoint of having no idea since they didnt either. I load the 44wcf with a 200gr bullet with 40gr of gunpowder and all I can say is it shoots hard. Dont forget reloading was popular in the day hence mfg's printing "reloadable" on cartridge boxes and you can bet the 44russian was loaded with every possible combination from F to 4F. So if wanting to be historical you really cant go wrong. Good luck

 

[dinguss]

Good post Timothy!!!

Ya really they never had Chrongraphs!
i wonder how much they compressed BP tho?
When did they frist ever be able to measure bullet speeds in FPS

 

[Dale53]

I have shot a good number of black powder cartridges in .45 Colt. Both the .45 Colt and .44 Russian have reduced capacity cases (new ones) compared to the old folded head cases. So, it really does not matter what the old cases would hold but only what you need in the new cases.

Measure your new cases to see how much case you have left when the bullet is seated to the correct point. Drop tube your powder charge - the "correct" charge will leave 1/16" to be compressed by seating the bullet. If you compress more than 1/16", you have a real danger of distorting the bullet. I use 30/1 lead/tin and a PROPER black powder lubricant (SPG is the gold standard). Use 3F powder for the most power and 2F for the most pleasure. If you want even more power, use Swiss 3f - the difference is noticeable.

Mike Venturino's book, "Shooting Sixguns of the Old West" has specific instructions on reloading with black powder. I have tried his recommendations, and as usual, he is right on.

It's a good read and quite specific.

Dale53

 

[Win38-55]

I have a velocity chart in my 1896 Winchester catalogue. They didn't have chronographs back then, but they could get accurate velocity measurements by firing a bullet into an appropriate pendulum and then measuring the vertical displacement. (Kinetic energy was transformed into an equal amount of potential energy at the top of the pendulum's swing minus small friction losses.)

I want to verify what original BP velocities were, so I'll be making up some 23 grain loads using FFFg and chronographing them, but that won't be till the spring.

 

[mjr]

For what it's worth, Julian Hatcher, in his Textbook of Pisto;s amd Revolvers, decribes the .44 Russian as having a 246 grain bullet, a charge of 23 grains black powder, and a muzzle velocity of 750 fps. He also says it penetrates seven 7/8" pine boards.

Hatcher also says: "At 200 yards the cartridge is capable of making ten shot groups less than eight inches in diameter and good shooting can be done with this cartridge off hand up to ranges well over 300 yards."

I get the idea that Hatcher admired this round.

 

[50 target]

Originally posted by mjr:
For what it's worth, Julian Hatcher, in his Textbook of Pisto;s amd Revolvers, decribes the .44 Russian as having a 246 grain bullet, a charge of 23 grains black powder, and a muzzle velocity of 750 fps. He also says it penetrates seven 7/8" pine boards.

Hatcher also says: "At 200 yards the cartridge is capable of making ten shot groups less than eight inches in diameter and good shooting can be done with this cartridge off hand up to ranges well over 300 yards."

I get the idea that Hatcher admired this round.

200 yds & 300 yds offhand !!!!That is a little difficult for this old redneck to get his arms around.