Question about shoulder holster usage.

[9c1 lover]

This has probably been gone over before, I however, have not read anything on it so here goes...

With the concept of all guns are loaded, and never point a gun at something you don't plan on destroying, how is it okay and safe to use a shoulder holster with the barrel of teh gun pointed at people all day long?

Granted, there are verticle holsters that point the barrel down, but those are not comfortable and require extra effort to pull out the piece, so I would venture to guess most folks that use a shoulder holster, use a horizontal model, but now there is a loaded gun barrel pointed at other people all day, and pretty much at the head of children, should they be around.

For me it is to each their own, so please don't take this question as bashing or anything, I'm just curious as to how it's okay to use these type of holsters?

Just a friendly discussion.

 

[sigp220.45]

That's a good question.

I am wearing a Galco shoulder holster right now for my Sig .45. I don't really worry about it as long as its concealed. I've had this rig for about 20 years, and it hasn't shot anybody in the face all by itself yet.

Once I was eating lunch in a restaurant in New Orleans - Jack Dempsey's, I think. I took off my coat and didn't really think anything since I was at a table full of cops and there were badges and guns everywhere. I felt a light tap on my shoulder, and turned to see a nice older lady smiling at me. "Suh", she said, "would mind awfully much putting your jacket back on? That big ol' pistol is pointed right at mah head."

I felt like such an *** I just took the whole rig off and stowed it in my car. I thought it was sweet that she didn't mind it still being pointed at her head, as long as there was a thin layer of fabric covering it.

In short, I don't worry about it.

 

[9c1 lover]

I almost tried to post about hearing that story, couldn't remember where i heard it. Too funny.

Now I know it is not gonna shoot somebody by itself, but you hear it all the time about a barrel only pointing at stuff you are okay with destroying, but that one very important rule seems to go out the window when it comes to this one thing (shoulder holster).

I just find it wierd, again, I know it isn't gonna just go off, but I don't think I could do it, I would be too worried about it for my own comfort.

Thanks for sharing though, that is a funny story and one that has stayed with me since I heard it last.

 

[Gunslinger808]

My biggest concern when I taught firearms was the draw on shoulder rigs.
Unless you're real carefull ever draw means you sweep pretty much a 180 degree arc to get on target.
I used to put those with that type of holster on the very end of the line to prevent unfortunate situations, and the problem WILL be worse when you throw in a high level of stress.
Good holsters with a specific use, but not for the begginers.

 

[USAF385]

I only use vertical shoulder holsters for concealed carry.

Even though I know the gun won't go off by itself, there's just something about having the barrel of my .44 Mag pointed at the head of a little girl behind me in the checkout line that I don't like.

I don't like guns pointed at me. I don't care if I have unloaded and triple checked the gun myself. In gun shops, I get ticked when I see someone sweep me when carelessly waiving around a gun.. even though the employee just checked it. On the same note, I don't want to be out in public and have a loaded gun being pointed at me from underneath some guy's coat. Has it happened? Most likely, but that doesn't mean I like it.

I'm not bashing Glocks... I have two... but I shudder to think of someone carrying a loaded Glock in a nylon horizontal shoulder holster.

 

[9c1 lover]

My biggest concern when I taught firearms was the draw on shoulder rigs.
Unless you're real carefull ever draw means you sweep pretty much a 180 degree arc to get on target.
I used to put those with that type of holster on the very end of the line to prevent unfortunate situations, and the problem WILL be worse when you throw in a high level of stress.
Good holsters with a specific use, but not for the begginers.

Good point the stress level wont help any. I have seen plenty of people practice quick drawing and NOT under stress, but still shoot themself in the leg or foot. With a shoulder holster, that leg or foot now becomes a bystander.

I could see maybe on a farm or hunting or something, when you are alone or with one or two people but everyday around lots of people just seems to be asking for trouble.

Again just my honest opinion.

 

[9c1 lover]

I only use vertical shoulder holsters for concealed carry.

Even though I know the gun won't go off by itself, there's just something about having the barrel of my .44 Mag pointed at the head of a little girl behind me in the checkout line that I don't like.

I don't like guns pointed at me. I don't care if I have unloaded and triple checked the gun myself. In gun shops, I get ticked when I see someone sweep me when carelessly waiving around a gun.. even though the employee just checked it. On the same note, I don't want to be out in public and have a loaded gun being pointed at me from underneath some guy's coat. Has it happened? Most likely, but that doesn't mean I like it.

I'm not bashing Glocks... I have two... but I shudder to think of someone carrying a loaded Glock in a nylon horizontal shoulder holster.

Pretty much how I look at it.

As far as the glock in the shoulder holster, now add a mall ninja to the equation

I had a shoulder holster my wife got me for a little while, just for around the house, because my holstered sigma was uncomfortable laying on the couch, but I stopped wearing it when my 3 year old came up to me, while I was sitting, and I realized there was a loaded gun pointing right at his face. Gave me the chills, and off to the cloest the holster went...

 

[USAF385]

I stopped wearing it when my 3 year old came up to me, while I was sitting, and I realized there was a loaded gun pointing right at his face.

And again... there's no reason that it would have just gone off, but still, you wouldn't point a loaded gun at someone even with your finger off the trigger. There's little difference in my mind even if the gun is in a holster.

 

[9c1 lover]

And again... there's no reason that it would have just gone off, but still, you wouldn't point a loaded gun at someone even with your finger off the trigger. There's little difference in my mind even if the gun is in a holster.

Exactly, there was n't even a chambered round but still gave me the chills. I know guns don't just go off, but it still messes with your head a bit.

 

[jbull380]

I dont use them for that reason and the fact that its impossible to train with them since you are going to cover whoever is on your holster side at the range when you draw the weapon. If I cant train with it I aint using it.

 

[OK Hog Shooter]

As a civilian with a CCW permit, on the farm would be the only circumstance where I would even consider a shoulder rig. That way the only feet I got to shoot at are my own...

 

[9c1 lover]

As a civilian with a CCW permit, on the farm would be the only circumstance where I would even consider a shoulder rig. That way the only feet I got to shoot at are my own...

Exactly, I see no problem with that, or like hiking in the woods/ mountains or something.

 

[sigp220.45]

I dont use them for that reason and the fact that its impossible to train with them since you are going to cover whoever is on your holster side at the range when you draw the weapon. If I cant train with it I aint using it.

I qualify with mine four times a year. I just stake out the far left position on the line.

I would say if you are uncomfortable with it, don't use it. It works for me, but it's not for everybody.

 

[StatesRightist]

I agree with Gunslinger, it's a specialized piece of equipment and not for the newbie, but it also fills a role nothing else can. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a shoulder holster. Every accidental shooting I've seen, except one, revolved around a person who could not keep their finger off the trigger, not the holster the gun was in. When was the last time you read about a gun just going off in a shoulder holster...never.

 

[bitstream]

I was thinking of getting one for long road trips. I think it would work well while driving.

 

[9c1 lover]

I agree with Gunslinger, it's a specialized piece of equipment and not for the newbie, but it also fills a role nothing else can. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a shoulder holster. Every accidental shooting I've seen, except one, revolved around a person who could not keep their finger off the trigger, not the holster the gun was in. When was the last time you read about a gun just going off in a shoulder holster...never.

So you would have no problem having a loaded 1911 hammer cocked pointed at your child's head as long as nobody touched the trigger? That's how I'm looking at it. I know it doesn't happen, but nothing is impossible, and it goes against one the the most basic gun handling rules.

It just seems to me this basic gun rule is broken with this method of carry, if you think about it, that loaded gun is pointed right t the head of children behind you, or people sitting down behind you. Mechanical malfunctions can and do happen.

I guess I'm just overly cautious. I was around a ND when I was in my teens which resulted in a death of a friend, and have been overly paranoid ever since, to the point I can't chamber a round until I'm ready to shoot EVER. Now I realize it was a PERSONS fault when it happened, but in my head that doesn't matter.

Thanks for discussing this with me, been on my mind for awhile now.

 

[StatesRightist]

So you would have no problem having a loaded 1911 hammer cocked pointed at your child's head as long as nobody touched the trigger? That's how I'm looking at it. I know it doesn't happen, but nothing is impossible, and it goes against one the the most basic gun handling rules.

It just seems to me this basic gun rule is broken with this method of carry, if you think about it, that loaded gun is pointed right t the head of children behind you, or people sitting down behind you. Mechanical malfunctions can and do happen.

I guess I'm just overly cautious. I was around a ND when I was in my teens which resulted in a death of a friend, and have been overly paranoid ever since, to the point I can't chamber a round until I'm ready to shoot EVER. Now I realize it was a PERSONS fault when it happened, but in my head that doesn't matter.

Thanks for discussing this with me, been on my mind for awhile now.

I can see where you would be traumatized and I would be the first to tell you if you are not comfortable with your gun, holster etc in a certain fashion, do not carry it. Confidence in your system is very important.

Looking at your 1911 example you have not 1 or 2 safeties, but three. In the 100 years of the gun and millions of carry hours, there is no record of an accidental discharge such as concerns your scenario, that I am aware of. As for the violations of gun rules, that is when handling one. Many people carry loaded guns in glove boxes, in carriers on the back seat etc. Police carry them pointing in a potentially dangerous angle in their cruisers, yet it's done all of the time. I'm not advocating bad gun handling technique, just pointing out the nuances of the debate.

Everything about Self Defense is about possibility, not probability. There is no way to know in most civilian situations, that it is probable you will need a gun that day, you carry it because of random probability. That said, carrying a CCW with an un-chambered round is not what I what consider advisable either. I would be shocked if the general consensus among people who have carried a gun for a while, living etc is not the odds of the time it takes for you to chamber round does not substantially increase the chance of your getting hurt by a BG, vs the odds of a chambered round going off accidentally and hurting someone.

Buy a high quality gun/holster, practice drawing it, invest in a biometric safe for home etc, those are things you can control. I was not being smart over the finger on the trigger issue, I've seen that be an issue for even LEO's and military people. Stress makes even common sense things difficult.

I think your concern based on your past history is quite understandable, but I don't think it's based on historical risk. However, as I said in my first paragraph, if it makes you nervous, don't do it, nerves only increase the chance of an accident occurring.

Stay safe and enjoy your evening.

Edit: It occurs to me I forgot to mention one key thing. Shoulder Holster carry is not my preferred carry style, not even close. I utilize it in the winter when I'm going to be something that routinely exposes the belt line and that would be an issue. The rest of the time OWB is my preferred carry for my primary gun. However, in the instance mentioned above, SH carry fits the bill.

 

[9c1 lover]

I can see where you would be traumatized and I would be the first to tell you if you are not comfortable with your gun, holster etc in a certain fashion, do not carry it. Confidence in your system is very important.

Looking at your 1911 example you have not 1 or 2 safeties, but three. In the 100 years of the gun and millions of carry hours, there is no record of an accidental discharge such as concerns your scenario, that I am aware of. As for the violations of gun rules, that is when handling one. Many people carry loaded guns in glove boxes, in carriers on the back seat etc. Police carry them pointing in a potentially dangerous angle in their cruisers, yet it's done all of the time. I'm not advocating bad gun handling technique, just pointing out the nuances of the debate.

Everything about Self Defense is about possibility, not probability. There is no way to know in most civilian situations, that it is probable you will need a gun that day, you carry it because of random probability. That said, carrying a CCW with an un-chambered round is not what I what consider advisable either. I would be shocked if the general consensus among people who have carried a gun for a while, living etc is not the odds of the time it takes for you to chamber round does not substantially increase the chance of your getting hurt by a BG, vs the odds of a chambered round going off accidentally and hurting someone.

Buy a high quality gun/holster, practice drawing it, invest in a biometric safe for home etc, those are things you can control. I was not being smart over the finger on the trigger issue, I've seen that be an issue for even LEO's and military people. Stress makes even common sense things difficult.

I think your concern based on your past history is quite understandable, but I don't think it's based on historical risk. However, as I said in my first paragraph, if it makes you nervous, don't do it, nerves only increase the chance of an accident occurring.

Stay safe and enjoy your evening.

Edit: It occurs to me I forgot to mention one key thing. Shoulder Holster carry is not my preferred carry style, not even close. I utilize it in the winter when I'm going to be something that routinely exposes the belt line and that would be an issue. The rest of the time OWB is my preferred carry for my primary gun. However, in the instance mentioned above, SH carry fits the bill.

Lot's of good points here, and I should add, I only CAN carry when I'm home, so I will have the half second it takes to rack the slide. If I could carry out and about, I'd probably force myself to chamber one, but that is not an option in IL.

Thanks for the post.

 

[tops]

I am scared to death of those horizontal shoulder holsters. I will bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut that if you point a gun at a person wearing a horizontal shoulder holster they would have a fit but then they say that pointing their gun at the person behind them is okay. Larry

 

[growr]

If you aren't comfortable...DON'T USE IT! A shoulder holster is no more dangerous than any other holster. It is the operator not the gun, not the holster!

A properly holstered gun presents no danger to anyone whether it is a shoulder holster, IWB,OWB, ankle, *** or any other configuration.

A gun goes bang because someone did something to MAKE it go bang.

Randy

 

[USAF385]

If you aren't comfortable...DON'T USE IT! A shoulder holster is no more dangerous than any other holster. It is the operator not the gun, not the holster!

A properly holstered gun presents no danger to anyone whether it is a shoulder holster, IWB,OWB, ankle, *** or any other configuration.

A gun goes bang because someone did something to MAKE it go bang.

Randy

That being said, would you feel comfortable with someone walking around with an un-holstered gun pointed in front of them? Even with no finger on the trigger? It's properly secured, they have a good grip.. there's no way the guns is going to "go bang". The operator has control and wont fire by accident. Really no different than in a shoulder holster pointed behind them from under the armpit.

You might say it's an extreme comparison (and it is), but in reality there isn't much difference, other than the obvious fact that holding a gun out like that would be brandishing.

Nobody has said that the holster is unsafe.... it's just the concept of a loaded gun pointing at things you don't want to have shot. Normally when carried, the guns is pointed downward.

 

[Silversmok3]

Hmmn. I see a great deal of paranoia and hand wringing going on here.

Let us begin with my background on the matter of shoulder holsters . I use a Miami Classic shoulder holster for my Beretta and S&W 4566 when concealed carrying.It is a satisfying condition to have a holster which fits two different pistols safely and comfortably, which is why I am dismayed at the hand-wringing happening here.

For one, you do NOT sweep people to your right as you draw unless your shoulder holster is improperly adjusted. If your holster is adjusted like you are Don Johnson starring in Miami Vice 2012, it is improperly adjusted. When the piece is suspended at waist level in such a manner the user must fold themselves in on the draw to acquire an angle to reach the weapon, resulting in the unfortunate problem of 'sweeping' anyone to the immediate left side of a right handed shooter.

When the gun is properly adjusted in the holster with the leather retention component as close to the armpit of the user as comfortably possible this index changes. Once the strap is broken and the weapon is free of the holster completely its already facing a 90 degree direction to the right, and a split second later its pointing forward and on target. In this manner one has a much reduced draw radius and the risk of sweeping the right side is signifigantly reduced.

As to lasering people behind you with a firearm, this is an aspect of image trumping reality. A S&W semi auto is no more likely to fire in a shoulder rig than it is in a waistband holster.The difference is that a S&W holstered on the hip is aimed at the floor, which appears to be a more responsible direction than in a holster pointing back at the wearer's 6 o'clock. While firearm safety is a creed for all who keep and bear arms, let us no preoccupy ourselves with absurd determinations. If a shoulder harness is unsafe because it points a loaded and inert firearm behind the shooter, than police, military, and citizens who live and work in multi-story prefab buildings are practicing quite rude behavior carrying guns pointed at their neighbors and co-workers beneath their feet.

To adress the reaction to a loaded .45 ACP pistol in a holster pointing at me, I consider it no more dangerous than a parked car or an idling vehicle waiting for me to cross the street. Becoming freaked out because I visually see a gun pointing at me in a harness is illogical when said weapon would still be pointing at me had the user kept a jacket on.

There is a major difference between a holstered gun and one in hand ready to be used. I would hope that all who carry weapons regularly will know the difference.

 

[StatesRightist]

Find some articles about a properly holstered gun going off on it's own, you can't. There are plenty of examples of people with guns in their hands falling and the gun going off etc.

Having a gun in your hand and pointing it at someone vs having it holstered is NOT the same thing..if you are disagree go try both with your local LEO...concealed means the shoulder holster/gun not being visible.

....sit in the back of the restaurant etc so the gun is pointing at a wall.

The OP not wearing one at his house, that I get. This other stuff is opinion and nothing else. Don't use a shoulder holster if you don't want to, it's fine with me.....

Silversmok3 makes some excellent points.

 

[growr]

Silversmok3 said it better than I could.....Thank You for your eloquent reply. Well thought out, well reasoned in all regards!

Randy

 

[photoman]

So you would have no problem having a loaded 1911 hammer cocked pointed at your child's head as long as nobody touched the trigger? That's how I'm looking at it. I know it doesn't happen, but nothing is impossible, and it goes against one the the most basic gun handling rules.

It just seems to me this basic gun rule is broken with this method of carry, if you think about it, that loaded gun is pointed right t the head of children behind you, or people sitting down behind you. Mechanical malfunctions can and do happen.

I guess I'm just overly cautious. I was around a ND when I was in my teens which resulted in a death of a friend, and have been overly paranoid ever since, to the point I can't chamber a round until I'm ready to shoot EVER. Now I realize it was a PERSONS fault when it happened, but in my head that doesn't matter.

Thanks for discussing this with me, been on my mind for awhile now.

I'm very sorry to hear about your friend. Very sad indeed. I lost a very close friend to a self-inflicted gunshot wound and you never forget those events.

Regarding shoulder holsters: I'll grant you that they are not the perfect design but I don't think they are as dangerous as they might appear. I've been around handguns seriously for almost 40 years and can't recall a case of anyone being harmed due to a shoulder holstered handgun.

Now, if you want to talk about dangerous... I'm a big fan of appendix carry.

 

[USAF385]

My issue still goes back not pointing a gun where you don't want to shoot. The point about a downward pointed gun in an office building is totally valid. Yeah, if we followed the rule strictly then we could only carry with guns pointing downward and in one story buildings. It's not going to happen. Have I aimed a holstered gun toward something I'd rather not shoot? Sure. It's going to happen. If I can reduce the frequency in which this happens, I will.

As far as the gun being inert and therefore of no risk, this is true. Still, how many of us would sit down at a table and place a loaded firearm toward someone else or at our self? We wouldn't. Would any of us rest a loaded rifle pointed toward a crib? Obviously not. This is bad etiquette as well as a safety no-no. The rifle could be sitting there on a desk with nobody else in the room but a sleeping baby. We still wouldn't do it. Again, these are extreme examples but a valid comparison.

When my fiance rests her head on my lap when we're watching TV, I either move her or the gun I have holstered at 1:00. I know it's not going to go off, but I still won't point a loaded, albeit inert, gun at my fiance's head. I just won't. Despite years of civilian and military training during which I learned the mechanical actions which have to occur in order for a firearm to fire, I won't do it.

It has nothing to do with paranoia or lack of knowledge or anything of the sort. It has do do with etiquette and standards I have set for myself.

 

[USAF385]

Now, if you want to talk about dangerous... I'm a big fan of appendix carry.

It takes a special breed to carry a gun pointed at that......

 

[ASA335]

I'm a fan of shoulder holsters.

Be reasonabley safe, secure, and comfortable with whichever mode of carry you choose for yourself.

Currently I carry only DAO firearms in my horizontal shoulder holsters. I limit my horizontal carry to DAO because I figure it's pretty hard to get a DAO firearm to go off without a substantial pull of the trigger, so carrying horizontally isn't much of an issue in my mind - as long as the gun's trigger isn't touched in my drawing it.

To me, handling and carrying are not the same thing.

Once, at a LE shotgun training course where the four golden rules were strictly enforced, I had my Remington 870 unloaded, slung, muzzle down, safety on and action open, with my hands nowhere near the trigger. While I was talking with some of my fellow trainees one of the range masters walked up to me and said "Do you know your muzzle is pointing at this officers foot?". I looked down and sure enough it was.

This event got me to thinking about how easy it is, without any intention, to "sweep" another person in the course of carrying a firearm. I started watching others. Heck, even LE instructors, with their keen sense of firearms safety, occasionally and unintentionally point a holstered, slung or encased firearm's muzzle at someone else or theirself at least some of the time, regardless of the holster, sling or case used.

I've often seen folks I consider very safe with firearms and well versed and practiced in the basic firearms safety rules, carrying a cased gun vertically as they moved about.

I've been in many places where a firearm was just sitting on a table, counter top or in a case and the muzzle may have been pointing at me or others; gun shops, homes, businesses and in the field.

In my decades of firearms use and my decades of following of firearms safety rules, I've come to believe that rule one (All firearms are always loaded, treat them that way) of the basic four is the one you have to practice all the time; and rules two through four apply while handling.

Rules two (Never point a firearm at anything you're not willing to destroy) and three (Keep your finger off the trigger, unless you're prepared for a shot) would be difficult, maybe even impossible, to religiously adhere to, unless you only handle your firearms alone, in an underground bunker lined with bullet absorbing materials. Rule four (Be sure of your target and what's beyond) clearly only applies while handling a firearm.

I'm not saying ignore any of the rules; I'm saying let's not become so wrapped around rule two we're afraid of firearms carried in reasonably secure and reasonably safe fashions. It is the handling of firearms that should be our utmost concern.

 

[papajohn428]

I was thinking of getting one for long road trips. I think it would work well while driving.

I use mine primarily for days when I'll be in a car a lot. There's NO way I can get to my holstered (IWB) handgun while it's covered by a coat and a seatbelt. The shoulder holster makes great sense. And while I don't like looking at the muzzle of any gun, if it's not in someone's hand, it's not an issue. I'm careful.............but not paranoid.

 

[sigp220.45]

Wow, who would have thought shoulder holsters would inspire such vigorous debate?

I work violent crime matters on two remote Indian reservations. That means when I arrest someone, we get to take a three hour ride together to federal court. Me, the bad guy, and my Sig Sauer. As has been noted, there is no more accessible way to carry a gun while driving.

I also like being able to put on all my gear - gun, mags, cuffs, and badge - in one swoop, and dump it at once at the end of the day.

While I consider the safety issue a moot point, since my gun is well trained and will not shoot people without my input, I would note that in many carry options (in the waistband, crossdraw, appendix, some belt holsters and ankle holsters) the loaded gun is pointed at human flesh 100 percent of the time. Mine? Maybe 10 percent of the time, and even those folks are blissfully unaware since I learned my lesson at Jack Dempsey's.