Question for Leo's

[getwood]

Awhile back i aquired a registered magnum,just got the letter back from s&w,revolver was shipped 9/7/39 to the kansas city police dept.,it was one of 250 revolver's shipped to them,my question is- would the police dept. file the registration certificate's away or would they give them to the officer's who was issued these revolver's?,any help will be appreciated. thanks. bob

 

[Muley Gil]

IIRC, the KCPD Registered Magnums actually weren't registered, to the deptment or to the officers.

 

[getwood]

registered magnum

did all police dept's not receive registration certificates from S&W? regards.

 

[opoefc]

Of the top of my head, I am unaware of any Reg.Mags. that were shipped to law enforcement units, on group purchase orders ( P.Ds., FBI, HPs., etc.) having received registraton cards with the gun, or certificates issued. An individual purchase, by a LEO, or a presentation thereto, would have received the registration card with their RM and could have sent it back to S&W for the certificate. Due to the low number of certificates that have shown up over the years, with the guns, it seems that buyers who sent their application cards back to S&W for the certificates were a small percentage of the guns. I don't think the factory kept any records of certificates issued, however some years ago, I examined the booklet of registraion certificates ( they are perferated for tearing out of the booklet,) and as I recall, there were more remaining certificates than the stubs for the ones torn out. Roy can fill us in more on this. Ed.

 

[mikepriwer]

The KCPD registered magnums are not officially registered magnums,
but rather non-registered magnums. Most do have a registration
number stamped in the yoke, but officially they are non-registered
guns. There were no registration certificates issued for these guns.

Mike Priwer

 

[getwood]

registered magnum

? now i'm really confused,in the letter received from S&W says this this revolver is called "one of the original 357 magnums",it's reg. no. is 4990,250 units were shipped to the KCPD,reg. no's were from 4987 to 5236,approximately 5500 was made & discontinued because of cost,so how can this revolver be classified as non-registered? regards.

 

[bettis1]

Getwood,

Your confusion is understood (and shared by many). As you may know, the first .357 Magnums had a registration number stamped on the frame (as yours does). When those guns were sold to individuals, they had a card that the new owner could return to the Factory for a Registration Certificate with that number registered in the new owner's name. However, those guns with Registration Numbers that were shipped to police departments did not have the card to be returned to the Factory for the Certificate. Therefore, Roy Jinks does not consider those guns to be Registered Magnums.

Because of demand that they couldn't keep up with, the Factory later ceased to place the number in the frame and did not send the Registration Card with the gun. These guns, which are identical (but far rarer) to the Registered guns except for the absence of the number are commonly called Non-Registered Magnums.

Collectors have used several sub-categories to describe the original .357 Magnums. However, many of us, take the simple route and routinely call those with the frame number "Registered Magnums" and those without the frame number "Non-Registered Magnums.

Regarding your particular gun: The guns shipped to the KCPD arrived in several shipments and included both "Registered" and "Non-Registered" Magnums. Because these guns were well used and many were refinished when the Department deaccessioned them, some collectors look down their noses at them. I take the opposite view. I believe that they served and protected an officer at one of the most dangerous times any city had experienced at that time. They are great guns and you should be proud to own it.

Bob

P.S.
To answer your original question, the KCPD does not have any records that reflect the original ownership or the officer that it was issued to. In a housekeeping frenzy several years ago those records were destroyed. However, several of us have ongoing efforts to learn more about these guns. If you will search the files of this Forum you will find a lot of information on the KCPD guns.
B.

 

[j38]

Getwood,

I've shown this gun a number of times before - it's RM #5159 from the same shipment as yours to KCPD on Sept 7, 1939. It doesn't bother me in the least that it wasn't issued with a certificate. I hope you enjoy yours!

Jerry

 

[mikepriwer]

The subtle point about these guns is that "registered" means that
the gun is recorded, or registered, to the original owner. The number
stamped in the yoke is the number that is used for the registration.
For the gun to be registered to the original owner, a post card was
included in the original shipment of the gun. That post card had to
be returned to the factory. Upon receipt of the card, the factory
would complete the registration process, and mail a registration
certificate to the original owner.

This is the meaning of a registered magnum. The fact that the gun
has a registration number stamped in the yoke area, does not
necessarily mean that the gun is a registered magnum. If the gun
was not shipped with that postcard, or if the postcard was not returned
to the factory, the gun would not have been registered.

KCPD guns were not shipped with the post card, and that was
intentional, so those guns are not officially considered registered
magnums. I'm not going to comment on the situation in which
the postcard was not returned !

Mike Priwer

 

[Nightowl]

I wonder if there is a way to tell if an original .357 Magnum was "registered" or the card never sent back? Is there a way to check? I prefer Bob's method, if it has a number, it's registered!

 

[mikepriwer]

I think,but am not 100% sure, that the only way to know is via the
existence of the registration certificate. I'm not aware of any records
that the factory kept, that identifies the registered owners. Ie, I'm under
the impression that there is no recording of the cetificate issuance.

Mike Priwer

 

[bettis1]

I think that Mike is correct that there is no specific list of the guns that actually received a Certificate. The Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation has finally been able to make available all of the information that exists on each of the original .357 Magnums. Here is the web site to begin your search there.

Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation - Home Page - Insuring that the rich history of Smith & Wesson will continue for generations to come

Much of the confusion that exists regarding what is a "Registered" Magnum and what is a "Non-Registered" Magnum is due to a different interpretation of the terms by the Factory and by collectors in general.

From the point of the Smith & Wesson Factory, and by extension Roy Jinks, the only guns that are truly Registered Magnums are those that the original owners returned the registration card for and the Factory then sent that person a Registration Certificate. In narrowing down the possibilities of a Certificate we can make the following assumptions. 1) If there is no REG. # on the frame there is no possibility of a Certificate. 2) Even if there is a REG. # but the gun letters as having been shipped to a Police Department, FBI, etc., there was no card sent, consequently no Certificate was issued. 3) On all other guns with a REG. # there is a possibility that the owner sent back the card and received a Certificate. It is my understanding that the majority of owners did NOT send back the card, but I have no proof of that. The certificates that WERE sent have a much lower chance of surviving to this day than the guns that they accompanied. So, if you have a Certificate, be proud...be very, very proud!

With a little experience, most of us can identify a pre-war .357 Magnum from across the room. The first thing we do when we pick it up is open the cylinder and now you can see why I take the simple route and call guns with a REG. # a Registered Magnum and those without a REG. # a Non-Registered Magnum. Doesn't agree with the Factory's or Roy's definition...but sure simplifies my life.

Bob

 

[RKmesa]

...The fact that the gun has a registration number stamped in the yoke area, does not necessarily mean that the gun is a registered magnum. If the gun was not shipped with that postcard, or if the postcard was not returned to the factory, the gun would not have been registered.

Mike Priwer

Mike:

What about the pre-war 357's that shipped with the card, the card was returned to S&W, and somewhere in the intervening years the registration certificate was lost and no one can prove that the certificate was ever requested or received? Is it still a "registered magnum"?

Of all of the pre-war 357's that I own, only one has the certificate - and it was shipped to an LEO in Mass. I own a bunch of pre-war 357's and do not claim to be an expert. For simplicity sake I agree with Bob and in general, to me if it says "REG" in the yoke, it is a Registered Magnum. If it is a pre-war 357 and does not say "REG" in the yoke it is a pre-war 357 that was not stamped with a registration number.

What the factory did or did not record, what they mailed or did not mail with the gun, what they sent to the original owner or did not send to the original owner, or what the original or any subsequent owner did with what was mailed or shipped to them can greatly effect the value of the gun, but has little or no impact on the way the gun was designed, developed, or constructed. My conclusion... I LOVE ALL PRE WAR S&W 357 MAGNUMS, including: ones with REG numbers with certificates, ones with REG numbers without certificates, and ones without REG numbers.

 

[getwood]

question for leo's

Wow!! thanks for the information & opinion's guy's! i'm kinda of the quiet type,just sittin back & listenen,bein born in the country sunshine,did alot of front porch sittin,ate alot of cornbread & chicken,always was taught to work hard & work harder yet at trying to get to heaven,never graduated from a big name college,but i did get a diploma from the school of hard knocks, they only used one book there,i believe it was by Benjamin Franklin,called "Common Sense",finally i told my youngin's when they lay me down to just throw a copy of that old book in on top of me,cause i think the Lord will appreciate reading it again,as for me i just think i'll stay with my school of hard knocks education,that's my opinion & i'm aloud to have it because i faithully pay my taxes. thanks again guys. regards. bob aka getwood.

 

[bettis1]

Bob,

When you go, tell 'em to throw that KCPD Magnum in your box with the Ben Franklin. Both the Lord and old Ben will appreciate seeing the quality of work that we used to turn out here.

Bob

 

[Oyeboteb]

So...if someone bought a pre-war S&W .357 which has the original Box and Paperwork, Registration Card and Registration Number in the Yoke, and, the Card was never filled out or sent in...

Could the new owner now, fill out the Card, send it in, and would S&W "Register" it? So an erstwhile registerable but non-registered Magnum, could become officially a Registered Magnum?


Lol...

Probably would be a bad idea, and would be worth more just as it is, than if someone did that, but, was just musing...


Would someone who has one of those Cards, post an image, so we could see what they looked like?