questions on these new classics they're bringing back

[Nanook 450]

Originally posted by bk43:

Originally posted by Nanook 450:
If S&W were to go down the path that Freedom Arms does, there would be one hell of a market for a "real" classic revolver. What S&W purportedly sells as a classic simply is not - its a mere knock off, and should be an insult to the intellegence of anyone that truly understands the difference.

,
There is no market for a "real" classic or people in the business, who understand the business, would do it. It is obvious that it can't be done at a price point that is both profitable and marketable. No industry walks away from viable opportunities and the firearms industry is no exception.

The Classic line S&W did introduce is merely an attempt to marry some of the desireable features of the old guns with today's technology at a price that will sell and is profitable...nothing more, nothing less.

Bob

That's like trying to "marry" a thoroughbred to a donkey. And yes, they have, did and will continue to overlook a much higher end business venue.

 

[Hoytshooter]

I wonder how many of the people who think the old Smith & Wessons were so great have really spent the time shooting one that was virtually NIB. The would quickly find out why Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton, Bill Jordan and everyone else who actually used their guns had trigger jobs done on them. The trigger may have been just fine for police duty carry and for those others who might or, might not, ever actually shoot their gun but for those to whom it was a tool, and this includes target shooters, the actions stunk. Smith's biggest advantage over Colt was their metal was good enough that once the action was worked on it would stay that way or even get a little better, the targets shooters who shot Colts had to get their guns re-worked every year.

The Model 19 I had and carried years ago had a decent trigger out of the box but nothing to brag about. Different story after it was worked on. My Model 25-13 Mountain Gun I just bought out of the box has a trigger as good as, if not better than, the one my Model 19 had after it was worked on.

I wonder why this is so, it couldn't be because MIM parts come out of the mold with a much finer finish on them than the same parts cast the old way did, and with no lose of strength. MIM is used for such things as jet engine turbine blades because they do not require as much polishing to bring them to specs as cast parts do. The same holds true for the parts of the trigger mechanism in revolvers and any other gun.

I'd just bet that any of the gunsmiths who worked for Smith or Colt in the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's would take a look at the revolvers being turned out today with amazement and admiration. I'd also being willing to bet they look in disbelief at the parts that are pulled off the rack, run thru a buffer a couple of times then dropped into place with virtually no filing to fit. Yet the end product is just as good as all but the very best of them could have produced and in much less time. In manufacturing "time is money" and modern manufacturing methods are allowing companies to make products much better than than they made the same product in the past and at reduced cost.

No, I've shot some of the so called "classic" guns of the past and believe me I'll take a modern Smith and Wesson to them any day, even with the lock. But then, again, I don't buy a gun I don't intend to shoot, a lot.

 

[SAWBONES]

And yes, they have, did and will continue to overlook a much higher end business venue.

I'm with you.
There are always those who recognize and appreciate best-quality in any product or field, and will pay for it.

Just because the great unwashed demand cheap prices and tolerate crappy quality (no I'm not referring to S&W or to folks here, so don't get your tail in a knot) doesn't mean that the market won't bear or reward somebody who offers superior goods or services, even if offered at a premium price.

The argument seems to be "nobody does it, so that means nobody wants it, and so nobody will do it", which is simply false.

I do wish Freedom Arms would make a double-action revolver. I know lots of folks who'd buy one.

 

[dsf]

Hoyt

I tend to agree for the most part. I have done basic clean ups of all the Smiths I've ever bought and smoothing out a MIM trigger, hammer, rebound bearing surfaces and such takes much less time and elbow grease than the 70s, 80s Smiths. But, for lack of a better term, I attribute the "no fitting required" of the MIM Smiths to be the result of what I would call, for lack of knowing the proper term, the "geometric fitting" of the parts. That is, the parts are more of drop in than well fitted. I suppose so long as the side plate is on it makes no difference.

 

[ladder13]

Originally posted by SAWBONES:

I do wish Freedom Arms would make a double-action revolver. I know lots of folks who'd buy one.

Would go nice with my M83 .454.

 

[Andy Griffith]

Originally posted by bmcgilvray:

I'm not keen on frame mounted firing pins, [...]

So...I suppose you don't like .22/32's or K-22's then.

I'd say S&W might have integrated into their whole line before WW2 had it not have been so much more difficult to manufacture and costly at the time, or someone had come up with the current system.

 

[manderson]

Originally posted by DocAlamo:
I have absolutely fallen in love with shooting revolvers.

Absolutely!

Originally posted by DocAlamo:
So, having never owned a pre-lock, pre-MIM, or pre-whatever revolver, I cannot speak with any authority on the differences in quality.

"A man's got to know his limitations." - Dirty Harry - 1973

1973 6-1/2" "Dirty Harry" Smith & Wesson:

(They just don't make them like this anymore)

 

[Nanook 450]

I'd just bet that any of the gunsmiths who worked for Smith or Colt in the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's would take a look at the revolvers being turned out today with amazement and admiration. I'd also being willing to bet they look in disbelief at the parts that are pulled off the rack, run thru a buffer a couple of times then dropped into place with virtually no filing to fit.

Then they would take a look at the idiotic lock on the side of the revolver, and see the inner workings with the stupid springs and big dumb flag and say, gee guess people don't realize the primary safety is their trigger finger anymore. They would also see the fitting between the crane and cylinder and say man, what a big gap they leave. I think the old timers would grin alright, and most likely keep their thoughts to themselves, because their grandmothers would have taught them that if you can't say something good, don't say anything at all.

 

[bk43]

Originally posted by SAWBONES:
The argument seems to be "nobody does it, so that means nobody wants it, and so nobody will do it", which is simply false.

No, you missed it again. Someone could certainly make the guns some here are "demanding". The problem is that to be profitable you'd have to price them in the 6 to 8 grand range. Even the knowledgeable washed sophisticates wouldn't buy them at that price but....they would have something new to bitch about.

Bob

 

[Wyatt Earp]

Money talks and bullshit walks. If you think making revolvers the old fashioned way is a winner for Smith & Wesson, go pitch your business case to them.

 

[Nanook 450]

Originally posted by bk43:

Originally posted by SAWBONES:
The argument seems to be "nobody does it, so that means nobody wants it, and so nobody will do it", which is simply false.

No, you missed it again. Someone could certainly make the guns some here are "demanding". The problem is that to be profitable you'd have to price them in the 6 to 8 grand range. Even the knowledgeable washed sophisticates wouldn't buy them at that price but....they would have something new to bitch about.

Bob

http://www.iar-arms.com/great-western.htm

Check out this example of replicas - $500 - $600 range - there is another company that's making the single action colt and that slide action cowboy rifle, sure those are $1200 - $1600 each. Where you arrive at your $8,000 price is unclear. What variables are you factoring into your equation?

What if S&W mad these "new classics" EXACTLY as they were made years ago - no compromise only using the better modern steel? That would be such a revelation and I'd buy each one, and be happy to pay up to $1,500 each, but they probably would not cost that much.

I was at H&H Indoor Range in Oklahoma City yesterday, and spent some time around the display of the "new classics" and of course they are displayed, as most always depicted, with the lock not shown. The prices are $800 - $900 each! Who, with any common sense, would pay $800 - $900 for a new model 29, etc. when you can get one real nice 29-2 for that same price?

 

[batmann]

FA uses cast frames,as does Ruger and host of others.Their parts are cast or MIM, but yet we sit here an extoll the virtues of them. Maybe S&W should go the cast route and and the circle would then be complete!
I really want to see someone take their $2000+ blue, hand fitted, made in China sidearm out and drop it in the mud, or have it fall out while on horse back. Sorry FA makes a GREAT hand gun,to a limited market but that is why they are a small company.
This topic is really getting old--If you don't like the new S&W's--DON'T BUY ONE! Just don't insult those of us that do.
If someone buys one, say Congrats, we have a new member, don't run 'em off by telling they are stupid for not buying a 'Classic' that they don't want or need.
Sorry, my rant is done.

 

[yankee7809]

I prefer to think of the new reissued "classics" as just the latest numeric change for that model. Foe example the model 29 classic is just a model 29-10. If you look at it that way it isn't really a disapointment, just the latest model change. And with the return of the blued 6 1/2" barrel and wooden grips it really is a move in the right direction.

 

[Wyatt Earp]

Originally posted by Nanook 450:
What if S&W mad these "new classics" EXACTLY as they were made years ago - no compromise only using the better modern steel? That would be such a revelation and I'd buy each one, and be happy to pay up to $1,500 each, but they probably would not cost that much.

I just want to know how you can so boldly proclaim to know what a revolver made the way you want will cost to make?

Do you have inside information on production costs at S&W? Do you have the training and experience to evaluate such information?

Or is it just wishful thinking?

Me thinks it's the latter.

 

[Nanook 450]

I have no clue what the cost of manufacturing would be, and yes, this is wishful thinking. I the mean time, I'm not going to purchase a counterfit classic S&W.