questions on these new classics they're bringing back

I'm gonna have to haunt the Forum with the other old guys. It seems that there is more of a division between the pre lock and post lock categories than there is in pre war and post war categories. Maybe even more difference than between revolvers and automatics! No matter. I care not for how the topic categories are divided.

While I applaud Smith & Wesson for making the effort with the new "classic" revolvers, especially the fixed sight models chambered in .44 Special and .45 ACP, the lock kills it for me.

I'm not keen on frame mounted firing pins, two-piece barrels, MIM parts, and the great, hulking, ugly cylinder stop on the left side of the frame. I'd have still been willing to try one though except for the lock.

Never cared much for made for the manufactured collectibles whether they be Smith & Wesson, Winchester or Colt commemoratives, coins, cars, or Beanie Babies.

These "new crop" Smith & Wesson "classics" are about the same as if General Motors reincarnated the '57 Chevrolet Bel Air. I'm certain that in many respects it'd be superior to the original. Suspension advances would make it handle better, computerization would make the engine more reliable and more responsive. Then by the time all the government mandated safety standards were applied to it the car would be far safer.

It wouldn't be hard to start on cold mornings due to a dodgy choke. No vapor locking on a 105F Texas July afternoon in heavy traffic. No sluggish cornering, no brake fad, no points, plugs, and condenser to replace every 12K-15K miles.

It'd have a different and safer steering wheel and dash. It'd feature seat belts and shoulder harnesses It'd have a 12 volt alternator to power that cold A/C and all the power goodies the auto buying public has to have.

The finished product would indeed look "'57 Chevy-ish". Due to government regulations it probably couldn't have the exact appearance and stance of the 1957 model. It would be no '57 Chevy and the driver couldn't own the experience of driving a '57 Chevy with it. It would only be a retro marketing ploy.

Both Chevrolet and Smith & Wesson have moved on. The only difference is that there have been some genuine bona fide advancements on the automotive scene since 1957. Perhaps, saving for the idiot lock, Smith & Wesson has taken advantages of modern manufacturing advances. Perhaps it was necessary to hold down the cost of manufacturing. If it is then I'd hate to see the price tag of a new one made like the "traditional" models I love.

I've got five Smith & Wesson revolvers that I've had for over a quarter of a century now. Bought four of them new. I would say they've had extensive use. No modern gun can ever catch up to them on smoothness or reliability. And to think that they are all from the dreaded Bangor Punta era! We won't even talk about the pleasures of handling and using a pre-war Hand Ejector. The Smith & Wesson revolver has treated me better than any other brand of firearm.

I've handled and fired some new Smith & Wesson revolvers. They were...ok. And yeah, I was prejudiced in my evaluation. They were not better than a more "traditional" model.

Unlike the differences in the '57 Chevy and the '08 Chevy I fail to see where the manufacturing changes in the Smith & Wesson revolver are of benefit to me. Can't see how they will be more accurate, more durable, slicker and smoother. I've already experienced the best there is.

There are so many pre-war and post war "traditional" models of Smith & Wesson guns that I would like to own that I don't see a new purchase Smith & Wesson revolver in my future. If they were to lose the lock however, I will celebrate by adding some sort of fixed sight, N-Frame, big bore to the collection.

I have to abide change in most aspects of my life. A lot of change! Politically, sociality, in the work place, and with conventional morals. Change for the better, change for nothing more than the sake of change, mandated change, and change for the worse. I don't have to embrace it in my chosen hobby and am free to indulge myself in whatever prejudices I want.
 
I don't care what the subject is: Many people who own a great piece of equipment made long ago, will never, ever, give credit to the newer models made today! It doesn't matter if you're talking about guitars, cars, stereo equipment or guns! Admitting that a new one may also be very good, would somehow degrade the value of the older one (the original). I too, have said; "They don't make em like they use to"!

I have some fine original pieces myself, but would not hesitate buying a high quality new one. My beloved "old" Model 10 (for example) will always be special, but a new one is currently on my list.

If our companies are to survive in the world today, they must find more efficient ways to manufacture their products, or they will be history.

Frankly, I'm glad we can still buy high quality, new guns Made in the USA. I don't care much for Bill & Hillary, the Brady Bunch or the 4 Supreme Court judges who voted against the 2nd, buy I do like S&W and Ruger! I will continue to buy their guns.

If you want a new classic, go for it! You will get a fine gun with a lifetime warranty that you can enjoy for as long as you live and pass it down to the next generation.

You just won't draw as much excitement in the forum when you tell us that you bought it. After all, it won't be a dash this, or a pre that, or a circa this. It will just be a damn fine S&W Classic!

Get the gun that you want and enjoy it!

icon_smile.gif
 
If our companies are to survive in the world today, they must find more efficient ways to manufacture their products, or they will be history.


That of course tacitly suggests "must cheapen the quality of the materials and/or the amount or expertise of craftsmanship in their products in order to survive", which is what we are usually seeing, of course.

Fortunately that's not entirely or always true. Look at Freedom Arms' guns. A thriving company, and many of their guns cost nearly, or sometimes more than, $2000.
I have no doubt that lots of shooters in this country would pay top dollar for a hand-crafted, hand-fitted, line-bored, best-possible materials DA revolver if someone like FA would make it.
 
Originally posted by SAWBONES:
I have no doubt that lots of shooters in this country would pay top dollar for a hand-crafted, hand-fitted, line-bored, best-possible materials DA revolver if someone like FA would make it.
You are dreaming. $2000 for a handgun is obscenely prohibitive to the majority of American gun owners.

You must be a hell of a lot wealthier than me, or have zero responsibility to anyone else(children, spouse).

Enjoy life in Fantasyland.
 
I think the new "clssics" bring back at least some element of nostalgia.

Yes there are things that are not classic about them.

On thing that is better is modern heat treating if you compare a new model 22 or 21 to a large bore made before 1919 or 1920.

Still to each his own. I don't understand the comment about $2,000 being an obsenity.

I've been around collecting of all kinds most of my life. From comic books to cards to guns to.....you name it. I've seen crazy amounts of money paid for things I look at and say;HUH?

And even if you have responsibilities, sometimes people save up to buy their personal holy grail.

Also some folks , spend years in college to become doctors, engineers, lawyers. If they make a very good living, they should enjoy the fruits of their labors.

What some negative comments boil down to are jealousy.

Spend what you like (and hopefully can really afford) on what you like.

America......what a country.

Dave
 
I made no reference to being an advocate of cheapening quality or expertise! None!

I am happy for all the members of this forum who can buy the gun that they like (be it an old or new one). It doesn't have to be one that I like.

I just think the new gun owners should be able to come in here and proudly talk about their guns without getting bashed about MIM and ILS.
They not only deserve our respect, but some encouragement, especially from the more experienced members.

Not too many years ago, you'd go to the range with your new gun and everybody came by and congratulated you. Everybody was happy for you!

All the best!
icon_smile.gif
 
Originally posted by SAWBONES:
That of course tacitly suggests "must cheapen the quality of the materials and/or the amount or expertise of craftsmanship in their products in order to survive", which is what we are usually seeing, of course.

Fortunately that's not entirely or always true. Look at Freedom Arms' guns. A thriving company, and many of their guns cost nearly, or sometimes more than, $2000.
I have no doubt that lots of shooters in this country would pay top dollar for a hand-crafted, hand-fitted, line-bored, best-possible materials DA revolver if someone like FA would make it.
S&W produces roughly 350,000 handguns a year and Freedom Arms makes less than 1,000. Clearly practically identical operations that lend themselves to significant, insightful and profound comparison and observations.
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Bob
 
Originally posted by bk43:S&W produces roughly 350,000 handguns a year and Freedom Arms makes less than 1,000. Clearly practically identical operations that lend themselves to significant, insightful and profound comparison and observations.
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Bob
I'm not sure what you are trying to say, or if it's just sarcasm. Freedom Arms makes a single action that compares to none. Colt's SAA doesn't even come close. FA is running a lucrative business dealing in low production numbers of very expensive, high quality products. Same goes for some of the high end 1911's. Why is there a four month wait to order a custom Les Baer? These guys are making better guns. Colt and Smith are both history. I am not impressed with the new Smiths and would never buy one.

Someone said they wished Freedom Arms would make a double action of the same quality as their current SA's. I couldn't agree more. I wish someone was making a really decent DA wheel gun.
 
Originally posted by manderson:
Originally posted by bk43:S&W produces roughly 350,000 handguns a year and Freedom Arms makes less than 1,000. Clearly practically identical operations that lend themselves to significant, insightful and profound comparison and observations.
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Bob
I'm not sure what you are trying to say,
Then let me spell it out for you.

it is idiotic and ignorant in the extreme to compare a small business shop that makes a minuscule number of firearms and has very little in the way of overhead and fixed costs to one that makes hundreds of thousands of mass-produced guns and has a SIGNIFICANTLY different cost structure (both fixed and variable) that goes back to the 1850s.

I wish, for once, that those who have never had a hand in managing a manufacturing business would just stop trying to tell Smith & Wesson how they should price or manufacture their products.

If you don't like how they make them now, say so and don't buy them. But publicly proclaming how S&W should be able to make handcrafted, boutique products for mass sale because so-and-so does it only proves how ignorant such people are.
 
Originally posted by Wyatt Earp:But publicly proclaming how S&W should be able to make handcrafted, boutique products for mass sale because so-and-so does it only proves how ignorant such people are.
I never said that. All I said is the smaller outfits are making better guns. The reason is obvious. Frankly, I would give S&W some credit for staying alive and still marketing and selling revolvers with a profit; whereas Colt failed miserably.
 
Lotsa ruffled feelings and chest-beating about who knows best or most about stuff here.

As for economies of scale, no argument. S&W trumps FA.
That doesn't mean that one must be pleased with an imperfect (and sometimes downright crappy or defective) product just because it comes from the bigger, older manufacturer, or that "everything from S&W is just OK".

It also doesn't mean that many folks wouldn't be pleased to pay more for absolutely top-notch quality of materials and construction.
I would. If you wouldn't, well sucks to be you. If you would but can't, I'm sorry.

And of course S&W turns out some nice guns. I don't believe anyone said otherwise. It's just that they're unfortunately inconsistent about it.

How unfortunate to be in a position where you feel you must be the internet defender of a big old company whose products just aren't what they used to be.
icon_rolleyes.gif

I'm sure S&W can afford to improve their QC, and I for one wish they would.
 
I've talked to the President of S&W about the modern manufacturing process - there needs to be competent revolver makers in the process, that can hand fit metal and he simply does not have that variable in his equation, these are parts assembly people, not craftsmen making the fine old guns of old.

The same company that made the lock, bought S&W, so the painful lock is not going away.

To compare a gun to a car seems moot, futile and a classic comparason of apples and oranges.

I do own a few "okay" revolvers with locks, and appreciate the scandium offerings, I have four of those. Since coming here and learning for the last five years, I do appreciate the various levels of collectable classics, a $2,000 revolver is the low end of the collectable classics . . .

I've held the classics, cannot yet afford them - these new "classics" simply are not anything compared to the revolvers of old - they are an embarrasment to the fine old guns.

If S&W were to go down the path that Freedom Arms does, there would be one hell of a market for a "real" classic revolver. What S&W purportedly sells as a classic simply is not - its a mere knock off, and should be an insult to the intellegence of anyone that truly understands the difference.
 
Originally posted by SAWBONES:
Lotsa ruffled feelings and chest-beating about who knows best or most about stuff here.

As for economies of scale, no argument. S&W trumps FA.
That doesn't mean that one must be pleased with an imperfect (and sometimes downright crappy or defective) product just because it comes from the bigger, older manufacturer, or that "everything from S&W is just OK".

It also doesn't mean that many folks wouldn't be pleased to pay more for absolutely top-notch quality of materials and construction.
I would. If you wouldn't, well sucks to be you. If you would but can't, I'm sorry.

And of course S&W turns out some nice guns. I don't believe anyone said otherwise. It's just that they're unfortunately inconsistent about it.

How unfortunate to be in a position where you feel you must be the internet defender of a big old company whose products just aren't what they used to be.
icon_rolleyes.gif

I'm sure S&W can afford to improve their QC, and I for one wish they would.

Well said.
 
Originally posted by Nanook 450:
If S&W were to go down the path that Freedom Arms does, there would be one hell of a market for a "real" classic revolver. What S&W purportedly sells as a classic simply is not - its a mere knock off, and should be an insult to the intellegence of anyone that truly understands the difference.
,
There is no market for a "real" classic or people in the business, who understand the business, would do it. It is obvious that it can't be done at a price point that is both profitable and marketable. No industry walks away from viable opportunities and the firearms industry is no exception.

The Classic line S&W did introduce is merely an attempt to marry some of the desireable features of the old guns with today's technology at a price that will sell and is profitable...nothing more, nothing less.

Bob
 
Originally posted by bk43:
There is no market for a "real" classic or people in the business, who understand the business, would do it. It is obvious that it can't be done at a price point that is both profitable and marketable. No industry walks away from viable opportunities and the firearms industry is no exception.
I am so tired of trying to explain that.

Yet some insist the opposite is right. Maybe they should put their money where their mouth is and approach SW with a real business plan to make it happen.

I won't hold my breath, though.
 
There is one other position that has not been discussed, and that is many who are looking to buy guns for the first time have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the quality of the older guns. They simply look at the older S&W's as old and want a new gun. They may know of certain models like the 1917 or Mdl. 21, but they have nothing to compare it to.

Case in point: My brother is 55 years old and has a great working knowledge of rifles but has never owned a handgun. Some time ago he called me to ask my opinion of a new S&W "Classic" 1917. He had always admired the 1917 but his only experience was shooting one of the Brazilian contract guns. I told him I didn't care for the lock but had a couple of guns with the lock and had never had a problem. I told him of MIM parts and some of the other differences from the original guns. He said, ". . .so does that make these bad guns?". . . I said no, buy it you will enjoy it. He did and he is.

Those of us who frequent forums and enjoy the history of S&W, Colt, Ruger and others may know and appreciate what has come and gone. Those who couldn't care less about what has gone before are enjoying what is offered. That is a market no manufacturer can ignore. I believe most manufacturers are marketing to the younger market of first time buyers who don't give a flip about the past. They are looking for "style" and a reasonable cost. If quality was a real issue several of the lesser companies who market "look-a-like" guns would not have survived.

S&W appears to be a survivor who apparently knows its market. I for one am thankful they do.
 
I know I'm not the only one here who bought the 1970s Smiths (in the 1970s, not in 2000) only to be told they were lousy guns -"Why, I hear the guns don't even work because there's metal shavings in the action!" but of course now everyone loves them. I think alot of us look back with advantage, I know I do.

I think the MIM parts really reflect the difference between old & new. Definitely gives a better trigger pull right from the box as compared to the earlier stock machined parts (even without "shavings" let's admit, the 60s to 2000 Smiths had some "bumpy road" type finish on triggers & hammers)but they just look like hell - no case hardening. Good technically, but no aesthetics.
 
Originally posted by Meeteetse:
There is one other position that has not been discussed, and that is many who are looking to buy guns for the first time have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the quality of the older guns. They simply look at the older S&W's as old and want a new gun. They may know of certain models like the 1917 or Mdl. 21, but they have nothing to compare it to.

Case in point: My brother is 55 years old and has a great working knowledge of rifles but has never owned a handgun. Some time ago he called me to ask my opinion of a new S&W "Classic" 1917. He had always admired the 1917 but his only experience was shooting one of the Brazilian contract guns. I told him I didn't care for the lock but had a couple of guns with the lock and had never had a problem. I told him of MIM parts and some of the other differences from the original guns. He said, ". . .so does that make these bad guns?". . . I said no, buy it you will enjoy it. He did and he is.

Those of us who frequent forums and enjoy the history of S&W, Colt, Ruger and others may know and appreciate what has come and gone. Those who couldn't care less about what has gone before are enjoying what is offered. That is a market no manufacturer can ignore. I believe most manufacturers are marketing to the younger market of first time buyers who don't give a flip about the past. They are looking for "style" and a reasonable cost. If quality was a real issue several of the lesser companies who market "look-a-like" guns would not have survived.

S&W appears to be a survivor who apparently knows its market. I for one am thankful they do.

Well, I guess I have been here long enough to finally weigh in on this one. I have been shooting semiautomatics for many years. It seems that as I get older (I am in my lat 50's right now) I have returned to revolvers. I bought my first S&W, with a lock, about 2 years ago. I now have 11, yes, all with locks, and have my eye on many more. I have absolutely fallen in love with shooting revolvers. As you said, I had no frame of reference with respect to the "good ole guns" as compared to these new revolvers. To me, they are wonderful and I am thoroughly enjoying shooting them, both for practice and in USPSA and IDPA competition.

It is funny how we resist change. I have noticed that I yearn for days gone by ... and the TCM and AMC channels have grown showing movies from my youth. But, to say they are far superior to the current movies would be a bit of a stretch.

So, having never owned a pre-lock, pre-MIM, or pre-whatever revolver, I cannot speak with any authority on the differences in quality.

For me, however, I really enjoy the new revolvers and the Classic's are new to me.

So, take it easy on this old doc ... I am a huge fan of S&W.

Dr. Bill
 
that open slot in the back of the MIM trigger kills it for me (not counting the lock)...why can't they at least make the trigger look well finished? Do MIM parts have to look so tacky?

Would you get a hand carved EPS holster for a "classic" revolver? Its like BBQ meets McDonalds.

(But I'd still take a "classic" over a modern plastic semi-auto (glock/sigma/XD) if that was the only choice. Anything "round" and "Smith" is better than a bottomfeeder!)
 

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