Questions Regarding Loading For Bolt Actions

[otisrush]

Today I shot my first .270 reloads. They were shot out of a Rem 700 I got as a kid - many years ago. I've reloaded bottleneck before (.223 for my AR) but this is my first foray into loading for a bolt action. (OMG it was SO FUN pulling the trigger on a gun with high sentimental value with ammo I'd made.)

The brass that I loaded up started as new Remington ammo. And I shot it out of the rifle I made the reloads. So I would think/assume that brass was fireformed for my gun.

I FL sized the brass (because the dies I have came in the collection of used stuff I got when I bought a guy's inventory of reloading gear) but some of the brass seemed kind of tight in the chamber. It took some extra force to close the bolt.....and I had to give the bolt handle a pretty solid yank backward in order to get the sized case out of the chamber.

I did some research and people in other forums suggested the die might not be set down far enough. I lowered the die a little, resized, and everything worked smoothly.

Now.....finally.....onto my questions......

If I had neck sized the brass that I had shot out of this gun I presume I would have experienced the same thing - that that brass would have been tight in the chamber. Is ammo that is neck sized a bit harder to get into battery than FL sized brass?

Additionally, I picked up just last week a new Rem 700 Varmint in .243. I was thinking I'd get neck sizing dies for this caliber. Do people who neck size have only neck sizing dies? Or is it recommended to have both types of sizing capability?

Overall I'm trying to determine if having what feels like a tight fit upon bolt closing is "normal" for a bolt action using reloads. Or is that an indication that sizing (either FL or neck) is not right? (And BTW, I did check case length and trimmed appropriately.)

In a nutshell I'm trying to determine 1/ did my .270 experience indicate my FL dies was set up incorrectly and, if so, why given the brass had previously come out of my gun and 2/ for my new foray into .243 can I survive with neck dies only or do people recommend getting both?

Thanks!

OR

 

[OKFC05]

For 10 years I had nothing but a Model 70 Winchester in .270 and an original Lee loader that only neck sized. I found neck sizing was fine, but the brass still wore out and you had to keep the cases trimmed. Go long enough, and the necks get too thick.
There is a die now that keeps the length from growing if you start with a trimmed case.
Then along came a Remington 7400 .270 rifle in the family and a Lee turret loader with a set of full length dies. For deer loads likely to be shot in either rifle, I full length size. Necksizing for an autoloader is pure frustration and failure.
For my elk loads that only go in my .270, I use new brass: they are MAX loads.


Sounds like you didn't have your die all the way down on the shoulder of your case.

 

[Alk8944]

There is full-length sizing and full-length sizing. Many people believe you size until the die shoulder just touches the case shoulder. You actually need to move the shoulder back slightly to allow free chambering.

What happens is when the case is sized the diameter of the entire case body is reduced and the shoulder is pushed forward just a few thousandths. The shoulder must be pushed back slightly to be returned to where it was as-fired. If you neck size by backing the FL die out 2-3 full turns you will partially size the neck but not reduce the body diameter.

Once you get to the point where the die just touches the case shoulder then turn the die in an additional 1/16th turn, which is .0044". Then try the case in your gun for free chambering. If it is still hard then turn the die down another 1/16th turn and try again. Once the case chambers freely then lock the adjustment ring down on the die body. Once your case chambers freely the additional loading steps will not change this.

 

[rwsmith]

I finally figured out.....

I finally figured out why my 30-06 rounds wouldn't chamber after I full length sized them. I was wracking my brain and beating my head against the way. I'll keep it short.

What I discovered that if I wasn't very slow and careful seating the bullets in some brass, the brass would collapse a very slight amount, only changing the shoulder angle slightly and of course pushing out the sides of the case ever so slightly. I was proud of finally being able to put that one to rest.

UPDATE: A coupla things that help. A little neck lube inside the case mouth. Having a good chamfer in the mouth of the case and having the right neck sizing plug for the bullet you are using. And going slow and easy.

 

[ageingstudent]

Otis, if you do it like ALK says up there you will be bumping your shoulder back, which is a good way to do it. I know with my 22-250 after I fire factory rounds I usually have to fl size fully and trim for the next firing so chambering is consistent. The brass is usually too long after the first firing. After that I can usually neck size for 3 firings, and then bump the shoulder back in the fl die and trim again. I start getting split necks around the 7th firing, and at that point I figure the brass is about used up. My loads aren't as hot as the factory stuff.

Depending on your seating and crimping dies you have to be careful like RW said. If you crimp too hard you can collapse and change the shoulder angle slightly and the round won't chamber. It's a head scratcher when that happens because you can barely see it if it isn't too crushed. If you get a few finished rounds that won't chamber try putting an un crimped round in the chamber. If the un crimped round goes right in you know the crimp is the culprit. I've found that most stuff I shoot doesn't need as much crimp as I originally thought it would.

 

[otisrush]

Thanks all. I greatly appreciate it.

For the .270 I was going to stick with the use of the FL die since that is what I have. I'll make sure the shoulder is bumped slightly.

On the new .243 I think I'm concluding folks recommend getting both neck and FL sizing dies.....that neck can be done following a few firings but the shoulder needs to be bumped back after a few firings - and to do that it must be with the FL die.

I am looking at using the .243 in a bit more precision way than the .270. (i.e. I'm investing more time and dough into the setup). So if someone thinks I can get by with just neck sizing I'd like them to pipe up - but otherwise I'm hearing, basically, one needs the ability to do both.

Thanks!

OR

 

[ageingstudent]

Thanks all. I greatly appreciate it.

For the .270 I was going to stick with the use of the FL die since that is what I have. I'll make sure the shoulder is bumped slightly.

On the new .243 I think I'm concluding folks recommend getting both neck and FL sizing dies.....that neck can be done following a few firings but the shoulder needs to be bumped back after a few firings - and to do that it must be with the FL die.

I am looking at using the .243 in a bit more precision way than the .270. (i.e. I'm investing more time and dough into the setup). So if someone thinks I can get by with just neck sizing I'd like them to pipe up - but otherwise I'm hearing, basically, one needs the ability to do both.

Thanks!

OR

I'm thinking your process with the .243 will be similar to mine with the 22-250. You can get by without a neck sizer and using the bump method with a fl die, but if you only have a neck sizing die at some point the brass will Likely get too hard to chamber.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I usually will full resize my 270 brass every third reloading with full hunting loads. I have found out in my 270 and 30-06 that the shoulder will creep with full loads.
This will cause a rifle to not close its bolt with minimum pressure. There should not be any force needed to close a bolt action. Bad case spec's or a OAL that is too long, will cause this problem.

With light loads in the 270, a 130gr at 2700fps, for 100 degree Antelope, I will just neck resize and ream the out and inside of the neck if needed.
This light load by the way, has 1204 ft/lbs of energy at 400 yards and saves a lot of meat.

Have fun.

 

[rwsmith]

A couple of things....

You will need to trim your brass after a few firings.

You can neck size until you can't get away with it. You can partially FL size if you want,

I neck sized in my 30-06 for years and probably had less trouble than trying to duplicate 'factory ammo' Same bolt gun.

The less sizing you can get by with, the better on the brass.

You can easily anneal the necks of brass that has been reloaded about 5 times to keep from splitting the mouth.

Brass taken care of and treated well can last a long time.

 

[shocker]

If you are loading for one rifle like a bolt action, neck sizing and trimming when needed will work fine.

Another hint for long brass life, load below the max by 3-5 %. Your barrel will appreciate that too.

 

[DocB]

I don't do much reloading anymore, but had a Remington 700 lock up on me using factory ammo some years ago. It was a 7mm Magnum. The day was hot and I was sighting it in for deer season. Had to pound the bolt open. Broke the extractor. I had only shot it around 3 times. That was all with Remington factory ammo. Maybe it overheated. Never used the gun again. Sold it off with the broken extractor. It's not just reloads that can cause a problem.

 

[rwsmith]

Tight chamber???

I don't do much reloading anymore, but had a Remington 700 lock up on me using factory ammo some years ago. It was a 7mm Magnum. The day was hot and I was sighting it in for deer season. Had to pound the bolt open. Broke the extractor. I had only shot it around 3 times. That was all with Remington factory ammo. Maybe it overheated. Never used the gun again. Sold it off with the broken extractor. It's not just reloads that can cause a problem.

There must have been something to the chamber that would cause that. Maybe it was the ammo, but trouble right off the bat like that sounds like it may have been the gun chamber.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

For target rounds I neck size as many times as I can then do a trim , chamfer and full length resize when the bolt starts to run tight. For hunting rounds that are not shot as much I always full length resize and cycle the rounds to make sure they all function properly in the chamber that they will be used in. I bought some .243 rounds years ago on the way to a range to try a new rifle and was not able to ever get the first round in without applying way excess force. I did fire two rounds and even the fired cases were still a no go in that rifle. Tried them in my old 788 and they fit fine. They were sized a tad long and not to sammi spec so would not fit the tight chamber of the first rifle .

Eddie

 

[elpac3]

All of the above. I find that with my .270 the bolt will start to get stiff after 3-4 reloads of neck sizing only. Then it is time to bump the shoulder back about .002".

A handy tool to consider having at the loading bench is a Wilson case gage. With the case gage, it is pretty easy to tell when a round is getting too long or when the shoulder needs to be bumped back. I check every round once the bass has been cleaned and sized for headspace then once again once the bullet is seated.

Another thing you may wish to consider is actually measuing the shoulder of a once fired round then using that as a gage for future rounds. Hornady makes a measuring set that I have found to be helpful as I develop new loads. I measure both the shoulder and the ogive when seating bullets. With the .270 you may find the longest your can go is 3.325 COL due to magazine size. My .270 has some feebore which generally runs about .055" On the other hand, my .222 is tight and I can seat to .010" for best accuracy.

 

[Nevada Ed]

My old Winchester will accept a spritzer bullet at a OAL of 3.34"
The only reason I have to stop at this length, is that if any longer, the ammo will not fit in the paper ammo cartons it came in.

I have gone longer with the Sierra boat tail hollow point that I load for target use in my 100 round box, but I have to hand load these, one at a time.

For some odd reason my rifle never liked the 150gr bullets.
However the 140gr Nosler Accubond is my go to Moose/Elk load.This weight bullet can start out at 2710fps for deer and go to 2978fps for the larger animals, if needed.

My rifle has shot so many bullets over its life time, that I have switched from the 130gr, up to the 140gr to get my best accuracy. MOA at 100 yards is always nice to have.

Safe loading.

 

[bigedp51]

Now.....finally.....onto my questions......

If I had neck sized the brass that I had shot out of this gun I presume I would have experienced the same thing - that that brass would have been tight in the chamber. Is ammo that is neck sized a bit harder to get into battery than FL sized brass?

Additionally, I picked up just last week a new Rem 700 Varmint in .243. I was thinking I'd get neck sizing dies for this caliber. Do people who neck size have only neck sizing dies? Or is it recommended to have both types of sizing capability?

Overall I'm trying to determine if having what feels like a tight fit upon bolt closing is "normal" for a bolt action using reloads. Or is that an indication that sizing (either FL or neck) is not right? (And BTW, I did check case length and trimmed appropriately.)

In a nutshell I'm trying to determine 1/ did my .270 experience indicate my FL dies was set up incorrectly and, if so, why given the brass had previously come out of my gun and 2/ for my new foray into .243 can I survive with neck dies only or do people recommend getting both?

Thanks!

OR

The only brass I neck size is for my mil-surp rifles with long fat chambers that full length sizing would shorten case life.

All other rifle cases I full length resize that the late Jim Hull of the Sierra ballistic test lab made the following humorous statement.

"The cartridge case should fit the chamber like a rat t u r d in a violin case."
(the fecal debri needed the spaces or it comes out as ****.

Jim Hull meant that he full length resized all his cases for better bullet alignment with the bore.

A full length resized case is supported in the rear by the bolt face and by the bullet in the throat. And the body and neck of the case do not touch the chamber walls. This gives the case "wiggle" room to let the bullet self align with the bore. A full length resized case should be .003 to .005 smaller in diameter than the fired case. (wiggle room) When the trigger is pulled the cartridge is being pushed forward by the ejector and only the shoulder of the case is touching the chamber.

With a neck sized case if the case has unequal case wall thickness the fired case can push the bullet out of alignment with the bore. These are called warped banana shaped cases and major reason why the vast majority of competitive shooters full length resize.

Eventually a neck sized case will have to have the case shoulder bumped (pushed back) to fit the chamber. And a full length resized case had the case shoulder bumped back .001 to .002 every time it is resized.

The reason your cases where hard to chamber was the case shoulders were not pushed back far enough. Meaning the rear of the case was pressed against the boltface by the case shoulder and rubbing.

Below the case grows in length when squeezed during the resizing process, (blue dotted line) And becomes longer than its fired length (red dotted line)

This is where the proper up and down adjustment of the die comes in and setting the die to only push the shoulder back .001 to .002. below the red dotted line.

The majority of dies will push the case shoulder back to the (green dotted line) when setup as per the directions. This is to ensure that the case will fit in any chamber. (and many times over resizes the case)

Example, I have a .004 air gap between the shell holder and the bottom of the die for .003 shoulder bump on my .223/5.56 cases fired in my AR15 rifle. If I set the die up per the dies instructions the case shoulder would be over resized and the shoulder pushed back .009.

A good tool to have is a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge and a vernier caliper. This will allow you to measure your fired cases and then set the die up for the correct shoulder bump or setback.

Bottom line, you adjust the die up or down for a custom fit of cartridge in your chamber.