"R" for round butt or refinish. Opinions requested.

"Curiouser and curiouser..." SCSW says that the improved I-frame came along in 1953, and included the dropping of the screw in front of the trigger guard, yet IIRC, my 600,000+ SN example still had the screw, even though the spring was changed and there was a 2nd type flat cylinder release latch. These must have been turbulent times in Springfield, MA!!

Daniel, does your revolver have the screw in front of the trigger guard?

Froggie
 
"Curiouser and curiouser..." SCSW says that the improved I-frame came along in 1953, and included the dropping of the screw in front of the trigger guard, yet IIRC, my 600,000+ SN example still had the screw, even though the spring was changed and there was a 2nd type flat cylinder release latch. These must have been turbulent times in Springfield, MA!!

Daniel, does your revolver have the screw in front of the trigger guard?

Froggie

It has to have the screw in the trigger guard because it has the 'rounder' trigger guard. The screw wasn't eliminated until the Model of 1953's egg shaped trigger guard. This is one of the examples of confusion caused by SCSW's use of "Improved I frame" terminology for both the Coil spring improvement and the Model of 1953 which was actually a "New" Model.
 
It does have the screw on the front of the trigger guard.

From a couple very wise opinions it looks like the "R" is simply respresenting a rework. The mystery I suppose will be what was reworked because I doubt they would refinish a gun and then leave the double stamp. Although maybe the double stamp happened after a refinish before it ever left the factory, thus the absence of a rework date anywhere on the frame. Is that a safe assumption???
 
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It does have the screw on the front of the trigger guard.

From a couple very wise opinions it looks like the "R" is simply respresenting a rework. The mystery I suppose will be what was reworked because I doubt they would refinish a gun and then leave the double stamp. Although maybe the double stamp happened after a refinish before it ever left the factory, thus the absence of a rework date anywhere on the frame. Is that a safe assumption???

Daniel,

The rework R is usually stamped on all parts worked on or changed. The logo stamping is done before bluing, otherwise white metal could be showing in the bottom of the stamping impressions. Still no word from Roy yet?

Just FYI, technically you do not have a pre model 30. The term 'pre model' refers to guns that are the same configuration as the model marked guns but immediately preceeded the model # stamped guns. Therefore only the 3 & 4 screw Model of 1953 .32 HEs are actual pre model 30s.
 
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OK, am I the only one excited about the serial number??:confused: In an earlier thread, we thrashed out the idea of when the change-over to coil spring action, and this was posted at the end by two of our most knowledgeable afficianados on the subject;



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
I hate to upset the apple cart; my earlist Improved model 2" .32 HE with coil spring is # 574497.
End Quote

Apple carts have adapted to being upset.They expect it now.

I'm going to guess that we will eventually find an improved I-frame numbered between 565000 and 570000.
__________________
David Wilson


I think based on numbers discussed in that thread, we had about reached a consensus. Now we see a coil spring gun numbered 554536??? Don't we expect to see flat spring guns numbered as much as 10,000 or even 20,000 higher?? Could the "R" have stood for "Research" as in "Research and Development?" Then again, could it be that we were wrong about the relative ratio of post-War I-frames and that only about 20,000 (instead of 30, 000 - 40, 000) of the un-improved HE series guns were made? My head hurts!! :eek:

Froggie

Froggie,
No, you're not the only one excited about your 'eagle eye' observation and I apologize for not acknowledging it sooner! Your prophecy of finding a coil spring between 565000 & 570000 was not only on the right track, but exceeded!

I too believe the serial range of the leaf to coil spring change-over has now been narrowed considerably to between #553, XXX and Daniel's # 554, 536. Not to say that we won't find some overlap eventually but we now have a pretty small gap.
 
Daniel,

The rework R is usually stamped on all parts worked on or changed. The logo stamping is done before bluing, otherwise white metal could be showing in the bottom of the stamping impressions. Still no word from Roy yet?

Just FYI, technically you do not have a pre model 30. The term 'pre model' refers to guns that are the same configuration as the model marked guns but immediately preceeded the model # stamped guns. Therefore only the 3 screw Model of 1953 .32 HEs are actual pre model 30s.

Jim,
My bad, but what exactly would you call this one? And should I make the correction in the database as it is listed as a pre-30.
 
#@%^#& lousy memory! :mad: The little HE I own is SN 550XXX. Now instead of narrowing things down to only 1000, we're back to 4000 units. Did I think of somebody else's 553XXX, or am I totally out to lunch? :o

Froggie
 
Jim,
My bad, but what exactly would you call this one? And should I make the correction in the database as it is listed as a pre-30.

Nobody's bad, it's a very common assumption. You'd have to make a lot of corrections in the model base.

The model name of your gun is IMO:
".32 Hand Ejector Transitional Model (Postwar) Improved " which is incorrectly listed in the SCSW 3rd edition pg 127 as Pre-Model 30 and described too generalized on pg 423. The book actually introduces confusion because on pg 153 pre-Models are described differently and inconsistently. Pre models should mean the same thing regardless of frame size.

Background: (believe me, this is more than you ever wanted to know!)
Now don't get me wrong, the SCSW is a fabulous resource but has some misgivings with regard to I frames and I propose needs updating.

The larger frame Smiths have long been studied and dissected. Pg 153 clearly documents the result of the evolutionary path of N frames in 4 categories (which incidentally, are miss-numbered):
1. Pre war models up to 1941
2. Transitional Models (post war) '45 to c. '50
3. Post war, Pre-model c. '50 to c. '57
4. Numbered models beginning c. '57

The study of post war I frames was clearly neglected. Once I studied my own collection of post war I frames, I realized that those 4 categories also apply to them by substituting c. 53 in place of c. '50 and eliminates or at least largely mitigates the confusion and ambiguity of the I frames.

For example, SCSW's use of "Improved I frame" terminology for both the Coil spring improvement and the Model of 1953 which was actually a "New" Model is a major source of confusion.

So if one accepts and applies the above logic and descriptions of the 4 categories on pg 153, only the 3 & 4 screw Model of 1953 .32 HEs are actual pre model 30s. It also applies to all the other I frames of the period and is further supported by and is consistent with the nomenclature used for the .22/32 post war Kit Guns and Targets on pages 118 and 119.

Now I fully recognize that my suppositions are not supported by official model names as printed on box end labels or in catalogs. However, it has long been recognized and accepted that collector terminology be substituted for the sake of clarity and in fact is used and intertwined with factory nomenclature in the SCSW and other resources, i.e., 'Triple-lock' for the '.44 'Military Hand Ejector New Century', etc, etc.
 
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#@%^#& lousy memory! :mad: The little HE I own is SN 550XXX. Now instead of narrowing things down to only 1000, we're back to 4000 units. Did I think of somebody else's 553XXX, or am I totally out to lunch? :o

Froggie

That's alright! 4,000 is a lot closer than 20,000!!
 
Jim,
Thanks for the explanation. I suppose I should have reviewed that e-mail you sent me on the I frame evolution as that info is probably contained therein. So many complexities of these smiths.
 
Well, these are turbulent times in the field of S&W collecting. More folks seem to be getting interested, either for the fascination with the arms themselves or for an investment strategy in a time of rapidly inflating currency. Prices are rising dramatically, sometimes without rhyme or reason. The examination of the progression and evolution of the I-frames has long been neglected as they were just the smaller, less flashy siblings to the classic Ks and Ns with their gun-writer generated mystiques. More interest in the I-frames from a historical perspective, overlain with the profit motive, will bring out more complete knowledge about them :D and probably cause the prices to jump at the same time. :( Oh well, at least I got a couple before the "gold rush" began, and maybe I can still find one or two more. Now how about if all of you quit looking for about 6 months to give me a chance to get a couple more key pieces? :rolleyes:

Froggie
 
I have a 19-3 with an R stamped in the frame under the stocks. I contacted S&W if it was a reblue or repair stamp. They told me it was an in house manufacturing mark. Do not know if they gave me the correct info but that was the answer I received.
 
About 10 - 15 years ago I bought a new in case in box 5 screw 44mag. The gun had a big R stamped on all the major parts. In the barrel channel, inside the yoke, on the yoke, on the back of the cylinder, and under the grips. The gun was new unturned wrapped in waxed paper, the tools where still wrapped in the brown tissue, all in the blue case in a grey card board box. the unexplaned Rs bothered me enough to trade it off. Rework, refinish, rejected, or an assembler's mark ?
 
About 10 - 15 years ago I bought a new in case in box 5 screw 44mag. The gun had a big R stamped on all the major parts. In the barrel channel, inside the yoke, on the yoke, on the back of the cylinder, and under the grips. The gun was new unturned wrapped in waxed paper, the tools where still wrapped in the brown tissue, all in the blue case in a grey card board box. the unexplaned Rs bothered me enough to trade it off. Rework, refinish, rejected, or an assembler's mark ?

Interesting, did you record the serial number? It might be interesting to research that a bit.
 
Interesting, did you record the serial number? It might be interesting to research that a bit.

No I don't recall the number. I bought from Bob's in Darian, CT and Sold It to Ron's Guns in Lyme, CT with the FFL from the shop I worked in. That shop changed hands and I left, and it has since gone out of business. At the least I can recall 21 4&5 screw 44mags have passed through my hands and I regret not saving any for myself.
 
I have a 19-3 with an R stamped in the frame under the stocks. I contacted S&W if it was a reblue or repair stamp. They told me it was an in house manufacturing mark. Do not know if they gave me the correct info but that was the answer I received.
I have a pre-29 with an R under the left stock. I also have two pre-24's with a similar S under the left stock. I never thought much about them, since they were not framed by a diamond or a rectangle..... Mike
 
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