This^^^^^^^
Range verses self defense ammunition
- Thread starter drcotlar
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StillStanding
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Self defense shooting will be 5 feet to 20 feet at best. Measure out 20 feet outside to actually see that distance.
Range ammunition is good for self defense and is what you’re shooting at the range.
Range ammunition is good for self defense and is what you’re shooting at the range.
True story - co-worker was on night shift. Had range qualification the following morning. Stayed up after shift and did the training, cleaned gun and reloaded before going home to sleep before reporting back to night shift tour. S&W model 10 was issued weapon with 158 HP ammo. About 2am, robbery alarm call at local motel. Arrival within a minute or two. Did everything right. Parked close, got out on foot, concealed himself behind covered porch column at front door of motel. Within very short time, bad guy comes out of door, officer announces and gives proper orders. Bad guy points gun at officer and is then immediately shot in chest. Nothing happens. Bad guy drops gun on demand, sits on curb and says “don't shoot me again”. Calvary arrives, bad guy goes to hospital, Dr asks what he was shot with and officer at hospital radios officers still on scene. Shooter officer opens cylinder and we immediately see gun was loaded with 158 round nose lead. It was determined when night shift officer went to range for qualification, he dumped his duty rounds in a pocket, got his 50 rounds of range ammo and during qualification, fired his 6 duty rounds leaving 6 target rounds left over which were loaded prior to leaving the range. Lots of lessons here with some behind the curtain look at cop stuff but target rounds are for targets.
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For the 9mm guns I carry self defense ammo is at least twice as expensive as range ammo. The biggest difference is self defense ammo has a jacketed hollow point bullet and range ammo has a full metal jacket. For practice both punch holes in paper and knock over plates with equal effect but the JHP bullet is more effective if you need to stop an attacker. How much more effective is a subject of great debate but the general conclusion enough to make carrying the more expensive self defense ammo worth the extra cost.
There can be other differences but they do not make much of a difference for practice. Some brands and types of ammo might be more accurate but that is something that matters a great deal for slow fire bullseye shooting at 25 yards but has little effect when quickly shooting at closer ranges. At 25 yards and shooting with a rest I can see point of impact shifts and varying accuracy depending on the ammo. But when shooting steel plates at 12 yards the differences are too small to matter.
Self defense ammo in 9mm is often loaded to +P pressure which creates more recoil and is louder than range ammo. But the shooting experience is not so different it feels like you are shooting a different caliber.
But if you are revolver shooter that practices with mild 148 grain wadcutter 38 Special ammo but carries hot loaded 125 grain 357 Magnum ammo you are shooting two very different calibers. In that case you should be practicing with some sort of 357 Magnum ammo so you are used to dealing with the extra recoil and blast.
There can be other differences but they do not make much of a difference for practice. Some brands and types of ammo might be more accurate but that is something that matters a great deal for slow fire bullseye shooting at 25 yards but has little effect when quickly shooting at closer ranges. At 25 yards and shooting with a rest I can see point of impact shifts and varying accuracy depending on the ammo. But when shooting steel plates at 12 yards the differences are too small to matter.
Self defense ammo in 9mm is often loaded to +P pressure which creates more recoil and is louder than range ammo. But the shooting experience is not so different it feels like you are shooting a different caliber.
But if you are revolver shooter that practices with mild 148 grain wadcutter 38 Special ammo but carries hot loaded 125 grain 357 Magnum ammo you are shooting two very different calibers. In that case you should be practicing with some sort of 357 Magnum ammo so you are used to dealing with the extra recoil and blast.
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While rare, not all self-defense shooting is going to be at close range. There are a respectable number of documented cases where the range was 70+ (measured, not eyeballed) yards. Naturally, there were some short of that distance, but still beyond the usual 5 yard average.
Your defense in those cases is easy: I shot the threat, obviously, they were (theoretically) capable of shooting me.
While you can use range/solid/non-expanding ammunition for defensive purposes, there are MUCH better choices.
One of the primary reasons to use hollow point ammunition for self defense is to avoid over penetration. There are two reasons for that:
- if the bullet exits the assailant, it poses a threat to innocent bystanders behind the assailant; and
- of much lesser importance, the energy it has upon exit isn’t left in the assailant and is no help in producing rapid incapacitation.
This is a .32 ACP 75 gr cast bullet launched at just 765 fps from a 3.9” Walther PP. It’s about as wimpy as it gets for a center fire pistol cartridge (other than the .25 ACP). However it still delivered 27” of penetration, more than enough to pass through an assailant and tag someone else.
A second primary reason to use hollow points is to dump the energy of the bullet in the assailant and ideally increase the diameter and volume of the permanent wound channel.
At handgun velocities (under about 2000 fps) energy transfer isn’t a huge deal as the resulting temporary stretch cavity isn’t usually large enough to cause permanent tissue damage.
Which makes the diameter and volume of the wound channel even more important. Rapid incapacitation occurs due to a cardio vascular hit that results in rapid loss of blood pressure. Larger wound channels increase the potential for that to happen. Rapid incapacitation also occurs with a hit to the central nervous system; the brain and the large nerves in the spinal column.
Even with good bullet placement, drilling smaller holes with non expanding bullets decreases the odds of both.
Finally, a couple effective hits with hollow points is both more effective at achieving rapid incapacitation and is arguably less lethal than a larger number of hits with non expanding bullets.
For example, hitting an assailant center of mass with 10 rounds of .22 LR will almost certainly be lethal as all those wound tracks will damage multiple organs and compromise multiple systems which increases the risk of the assailant dying before a surgeon can repair all the damage.
The same is true for 4-5 hits with 9mm FMJ.
Neither of those however are very effective at achieving rapid incapacitation and short of that, the wounded assailant could very well kill you before he succumbs to his or her wounds.
I worked a case with a thoracic surgeon from South Africa once and between his military experience and time spent in an NYC hospital he had worked on about 1500 patients with gun shot wounds to the chest. He told me that based on his experience the most lethal handgun round was the .45 230 gr FMJ, followed by 9mm FMJ.
He also noted the more times a person is hit the more likely they are to die for the reasons I stated above; multiple wounds tracks and multiple organs and systems compromised.
The key words here are “most lethal” and “in his experience” (as a surgeon in an operating room). In order to get to his operating room, the victim had to live long enough to get there. That restricted his sample of gunshot victims to those that survive long enough to be operated on. Of those, patients shot with 1-2 hollow points were more likely to survive than patients shot with multiple FMJs, and patients shot with FMJs were more likely to be shot multiple times before they stopped the assault.
——
As a practical matter it often doesn’t make much difference whether someone is using FMJs or hollow points as many hollow points don’t perform well in a particular handgun as they don’t achieve enough velocity to expand, particularly in short barrels. When they fail to expand they perform just like an FMJ.
Under penetration can also be an issue and it can hinge on fairly small differences in velocity. Below we have an 8” difference in penetration with the same load from 4” and 3.15” barrels, with the longer barrel in this case producing inadequate penetration with just 70 fps more velocity as this particular bullet has a very narrow effective performance envelope.
In contrast, here we have the same 124 gr Sig V-Crown bullet and the same load producing varying but still acceptable expansion in three significantly different barrel lengths with all three of them producing between 14” penetration (1351 fps from an 8.9” MP5) and 18” penetration (1015 fps from a 3.15” Micro 9). In this case the bullet has a very wide effective performance envelope.
—-
Range ammo will almost always be better than a poke with a sharp stick, but a good performing hollow point will be preferable, and absent under penetration is always a safer bet. You just have to do enough research or your own testing to be able to determine whether it will be effective at the velocities achieved in your handgun.
- if the bullet exits the assailant, it poses a threat to innocent bystanders behind the assailant; and
- of much lesser importance, the energy it has upon exit isn’t left in the assailant and is no help in producing rapid incapacitation.
This is a .32 ACP 75 gr cast bullet launched at just 765 fps from a 3.9” Walther PP. It’s about as wimpy as it gets for a center fire pistol cartridge (other than the .25 ACP). However it still delivered 27” of penetration, more than enough to pass through an assailant and tag someone else.
A second primary reason to use hollow points is to dump the energy of the bullet in the assailant and ideally increase the diameter and volume of the permanent wound channel.
At handgun velocities (under about 2000 fps) energy transfer isn’t a huge deal as the resulting temporary stretch cavity isn’t usually large enough to cause permanent tissue damage.
Which makes the diameter and volume of the wound channel even more important. Rapid incapacitation occurs due to a cardio vascular hit that results in rapid loss of blood pressure. Larger wound channels increase the potential for that to happen. Rapid incapacitation also occurs with a hit to the central nervous system; the brain and the large nerves in the spinal column.
Even with good bullet placement, drilling smaller holes with non expanding bullets decreases the odds of both.
Finally, a couple effective hits with hollow points is both more effective at achieving rapid incapacitation and is arguably less lethal than a larger number of hits with non expanding bullets.
For example, hitting an assailant center of mass with 10 rounds of .22 LR will almost certainly be lethal as all those wound tracks will damage multiple organs and compromise multiple systems which increases the risk of the assailant dying before a surgeon can repair all the damage.
The same is true for 4-5 hits with 9mm FMJ.
Neither of those however are very effective at achieving rapid incapacitation and short of that, the wounded assailant could very well kill you before he succumbs to his or her wounds.
I worked a case with a thoracic surgeon from South Africa once and between his military experience and time spent in an NYC hospital he had worked on about 1500 patients with gun shot wounds to the chest. He told me that based on his experience the most lethal handgun round was the .45 230 gr FMJ, followed by 9mm FMJ.
He also noted the more times a person is hit the more likely they are to die for the reasons I stated above; multiple wounds tracks and multiple organs and systems compromised.
The key words here are “most lethal” and “in his experience” (as a surgeon in an operating room). In order to get to his operating room, the victim had to live long enough to get there. That restricted his sample of gunshot victims to those that survive long enough to be operated on. Of those, patients shot with 1-2 hollow points were more likely to survive than patients shot with multiple FMJs, and patients shot with FMJs were more likely to be shot multiple times before they stopped the assault.
——
As a practical matter it often doesn’t make much difference whether someone is using FMJs or hollow points as many hollow points don’t perform well in a particular handgun as they don’t achieve enough velocity to expand, particularly in short barrels. When they fail to expand they perform just like an FMJ.
Under penetration can also be an issue and it can hinge on fairly small differences in velocity. Below we have an 8” difference in penetration with the same load from 4” and 3.15” barrels, with the longer barrel in this case producing inadequate penetration with just 70 fps more velocity as this particular bullet has a very narrow effective performance envelope.
In contrast, here we have the same 124 gr Sig V-Crown bullet and the same load producing varying but still acceptable expansion in three significantly different barrel lengths with all three of them producing between 14” penetration (1351 fps from an 8.9” MP5) and 18” penetration (1015 fps from a 3.15” Micro 9). In this case the bullet has a very wide effective performance envelope.
—-
Range ammo will almost always be better than a poke with a sharp stick, but a good performing hollow point will be preferable, and absent under penetration is always a safer bet. You just have to do enough research or your own testing to be able to determine whether it will be effective at the velocities achieved in your handgun.
Looking at recent research data on armed citizen defensive handgun uses 85% don’t involve the gun being fired at all. Smart criminals don’t want to get shot - it’s not career enhancing and when it becomes obvious the intended victim is armed, drawing or about to shoot, they un-*** the AO and find a softer target.
When an assailant has to be shot and is hit, about 50% will immediately flee or surrender as they don’t want to be shot again. It’s actually a bit higher for armed citizen shoots as while police will pursue and capture a suspect most armed citizens are smart enough not to do that, so the assailant has less reason to stand and fight.
In all of the above, range ammo is just as effective as hollow point self defense ammo albeit with a higher risk of collateral damage from over penetration.
It’s important to also keep in mind that as an armed citizen you are 100% liable for any damage thwart bullet does from the time it leaves the barrel until it comes to rest. While law enforcement officers can rely on qualified immunity and their department’s attorneys and financial resources in a mistake of fact shooting or civil law suit, an armed citizen doesn’t not enjoy that luxury. Armed citizens cannot afford to miss 80% of the time and skip bullets all over the neighborhood during a defensive shoot.
Consequently, when it comes to a determined assailant intent on killing you, hollow points are a better choice as they will be more effective at achieving rapid incapacitation while minimizing the risk of over penetration and potentially reducing the number of rounds fired.
—-
Range makes very little difference other than the fact the average handgun shooter can’t hit the broad side of a barn under ideal range conditions, let along at 25 plus yards under stress. As noted above the average miss rate for LEOs in officer involved shoots is 80% with really good departments only averaging around 50%.
Energy and velocity are not the issue. Take a 124 gr 9mm bullet with a .129 BC launched at 1100 fps. At 50 yards it will still have a remaining velocity of 1006 fps. At worst it will fail to expand and function like an FMJ. But at ranges and velocities within its performance envelope it will be more effective and a better choice than FMJ range ammo.
Doug M.
Member
Stephen Wenger just posted a report of a case in which a bad guy got head shot and the bullet went through and hit a bystander in the head, killing him. Almost certainly FMJ from a 9mm or bigger. Over penetration is a small problem usually, but it can happen - missing is far worse.
I want as much in my favor as possible. Ammo performance is part of that. 9mm FMJ or .38 RNL are not your friends, and the main reason to use those is to make empty brass for reloading. Ammo is cheap. Your life is precious.
I want as much in my favor as possible. Ammo performance is part of that. 9mm FMJ or .38 RNL are not your friends, and the main reason to use those is to make empty brass for reloading. Ammo is cheap. Your life is precious.
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“It’s important to also keep in mind that as an armed citizen you are 100% liable for any damage thwart bullet does from the time it leaves the barrel until it comes to rest“
Good point and why is is wise to have to have liability insurance that covers
attorney and court costs in such situations (at least in criminal court).
Good point and why is is wise to have to have liability insurance that covers
attorney and court costs in such situations (at least in criminal court).
Find out what your local police department is using in their 9mm pistols and load your pistol with the same. At least then, the local prosecutor may not make a big issue about your ammo.
Didn't one Pope absorb a full magazine from a Browning P35. Went on to ski the Zermatt a year later. Joe
heeter3
Member
It will work but at least for me Id rather drive a Lincoln than a Hyundai.The same goes for my self defense ammo.Its all a matter of choice.
^^^^^At the end of the day, it's your choice.
SWFan27
Member
Self-defense ammo is designed to expand and increase bullet mass when it hits the threat. It is also designed to not over penetrate and hit unintended victims. I believe the FBI requires 12-18 inches of penetration from their duty loads. FMJ loads are still most certainly lethal.
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Nobody wants to get shot with anything. That said, ammo designed for self defense will provide better stopping power than typical range ammo, and in addition, premium defense ammo that has been tested to the FBI protocol tends to penetrate enough to get to the vital organs, but not to over-penetrate.
Over penetration results in danger to bystanders as well as wasted energy (if the bullet passes through the target and keeps going, by definition it has not expended all of its energy in the target). Also, most range ammo (at least for semi-auto pistols) tends to be ball ammo which not only over penetrates, but also has a nasty habit of unpredictable ricochets.
Finally, some range ammo, especially match ammo, is often underpowered in order to minimize recoil. Reduced power means it is less effective for defense, despite what the occasional person will say about one particular target load, the 38 Special 148 grain wadcutter.
Designed for one purpose, to make nice clean holes in paper to make scoring easier, the wadcutter in 38 Special is often loaded to very low velocities.
Always use premium ammo designed specifically for self-defense rather than range or practice ammo.
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AJ
US Veteran
For all the info that has shown up here most of it is good. However, you use what you have at that moment be it target loadings, range ammo or defensive ammo. Try for good shot placement. Be prepared mentally for a fight. All you can do is react to the situation. If your range will allow use of a B8 target and fast shooting, then practice that. Shooting steel targets also will be of help.
38SPL HV
Member
Some very excellent points here…many years of LE experience says a lot.
Rogeronimo
Member
Wouldn't under powered and over penetrating be mutually exclusive? Asking for a friend.
Economics.....
I can shoot LOT of short range 9mm or .38/.357 rounds. The cheapest bullet that satisfies me are coated SWCs from Missouri bullets. Yes, those would work for SD, but I use JHP for SD. The cost to shoot dozens of JHP at the range would restri ct my shooting BADLY. So, at the range it's coated cast lead and for SD it's JHP. And not just any JHP. I have a few favorites that test very consistently that are commonly available. A couple being Federal HST and Remington Golden Sabers.
Oh, BTW. I LIKE my pistol caliber carbines and would use them in an SD situation. Some JHPs don't perform as well out of a rifle barrel. I would use the coated SWCs in those if I were compelled to. Something between a break-in and the Zombie apocalypse. Like those Korean guys sitting on the roofs of their businesses during those riots some years back
I can shoot LOT of short range 9mm or .38/.357 rounds. The cheapest bullet that satisfies me are coated SWCs from Missouri bullets. Yes, those would work for SD, but I use JHP for SD. The cost to shoot dozens of JHP at the range would restri ct my shooting BADLY. So, at the range it's coated cast lead and for SD it's JHP. And not just any JHP. I have a few favorites that test very consistently that are commonly available. A couple being Federal HST and Remington Golden Sabers.
Oh, BTW. I LIKE my pistol caliber carbines and would use them in an SD situation. Some JHPs don't perform as well out of a rifle barrel. I would use the coated SWCs in those if I were compelled to. Something between a break-in and the Zombie apocalypse. Like those Korean guys sitting on the roofs of their businesses during those riots some years back
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