Recent inheritence

[docyoung]

I'm a 70 yr. old retired physician--lived, practiced, recently retired and have been a gun enthusiast ever since a lad. Recently I unfortunately lost a patient and close friend to heart disease.

In his will he left me a considerable number of firearms, point of consideration being a S&W revolver, SN 74xx. The firearm has had little use (primarily being the tool of the trade a City Marshall in rural Idaho for many years. The gun appears to have had little use (70-75% wear, primarily leather wear) and is in excellent operative condition. It came with a holster, also in good to excellent condition (probably made by Browning.) The grips are in excellent shape--although listed as 'original and ivory'--both of which are very unlikely (IMO). It is calibered in .38 Spec.

It has a 3" bbl., markings of S&W trademark on the right-side of frame and SSN on the grip and on the bottom the barrel frame.

This appears to be a solid, workable weapon with holster wear only, no disfigurements or deformities. It appears to have been passed from Sheriff to Sheriff in the same small town.

Not being much of the knowledge of pistols, what little research I have done would indicate the gun to have been manufactured in the first year of production of this model S&W M-R, with the low SSN of 74xx and is in excellent working condition with the appearance of very little use in the past many years.

Photos are available and any other information which may be helpful if there are any or those who may be helpful in helping me evaluate this fine S&W pistol manf. circa 1899/1900.

[email protected]
Jerry Young
Soda Springs, Idaho 83276
Email [email protected]

PS This is my first experience on a forum so any suggestions to streamline or make my note less verbose, please offer suggestions.

 

[Tom K]

Welcome to the Forum, and Happy New Year.

To better help us identify your gun please read and understand this forum post: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/326457-identify-your-gun.html

From the information you've provided I can only guess that you may have an early hand ejector Military & Police (M&P, not M-R) and it likely has a 4" barrel. Barrel length is measured from the front of the cylinder, as the part of the barrel that screws into the frame is included in the barrel length. Many people make the mistake of measuring only to the front of the frame. Consequently the post should probably be in the S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 category and moderators may move it there.

Please post pictures - that always helps immensely.

For future reference, it's generally not a good idea to post your email address within the text of a post. Sometimes the unscrupulous will use this information for less than noble purposes. For direct communication with other forum members, Personal Messages (PM) can be sent and received by clicking on the person's username at the top of a post. Emails can also be sent securely through the forum if you provide that information in your profile setup.

Again, welcome!

 

[gunnails]

Welcome to the board, I am so very sorry for the loss of your friend.

 

[JSR III]

Welcome to the forum.

As was stated previously, it is almost impossible to rate or sometimes even determine what model without photos. Barrel length and caliber while important in a final determination, are only part of the picture. Many S&W models have the same caliber or barrel length so more is needed to make a final determination. Value is also primarily based on rareness and condition. The later can only be determined by either a hands on review or at the very least a series of quality photos from all angles.

In addition, we would need to know if there is an original box, papers and tools. While many will assign top value to the gun alone, to a true collector, it is the complete package that produces the greatest value.

If you have photos available, they can easily be uploaded from your computer using the MANAGE ATTACHMENTS button that appears in the Additional Options section immediately following the reply section.

Feel free to email me or PM me and I can walk you through the procedure.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass, Doc Jerry! I, too, offer my condolences on your loss.

The .38 Special Military & Police model, which it sounds like your gun is, was first manufactured in 1899 to 1902. That model did not have a front underlug yoke lock to support the ejector rod. That really is the only M&P model that matches your description because S&W did not reuse the SN and later guns were not numbered that low. So, either it is a Model 1899 or it's not an M&P. Other options would be more recent guns such as the Chiefs Special which are 5 shot, not 6. Since you mention it was made around 1900 leads me to believe it is the Model 1899 which ushered in the .38 Special cartridge.

 

[docyoung]

Recent inheritance

As mentioned, this is really my first foray into handguns/pistols so my ignorance will become obvious, i.e., don't know what a 'front underlug yoke' is so don't know if this weapon has one or not. Photos are certainly available and on the way. . . As a matter of fact, my knowledge of pistols is I know they are not rifles. Therefore, am going to need some help to finally sort out what exactly this piece is going to turn out to be.

I failed to mention that it did come with a holster with flap made by Browning when Browning was making them in Ogden, Utah. The holster is actually in excellent shape and appropriate lettering and numbering on the back.

All assistance appreciated. . .

docyoung

 

[turnerriver]

Browning marked holsters were usually made by Heiser, a photo of your holster with the revolver would be much appreciated as well.
I moved your post to the proper forum.
Regards,

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Doc, please read --> this thread<click here>. It will explain some of the terminology that you need to understand to make sense out of what we will ask of and tell you. Item 3 in that thread shows the caliber stamping on the side of most of S&W barrels. Under the barrel, as pictured, is the ejector rod underlug or AKA the front yoke lock. I don't believe your gun has this lock because it did not become a part of the design until 1902 with guns at serial numbers much higher than yours.

 

[sixshot]

Doc's S&W M&P First Model

I've seen Doc's 4" barrel M&P & took a couple of photo's, looks like one of them didn't download but it appears to be a first year production #74XX because there were less than 21,00 produced. The gun spent many, many years in that Browning holster which is marked "Odgen, Utah, not Morgan, Utah which was later. These guns came with checkered hard rubber, or smooth walnut stocks. It appears the sheriff that owned this revolver put some faux Ivory square butt stocks on it for duty. I would say the gun has at least 70% bluing & is very tight, screws are good.
I'll try to get the other photo up, here's the one I have. I also have 2 photo's of the Browning holster. Not sure where to post them. No box or papers found.



Dick

 

[sixshot]

Doc's Browning Holster

Here's the backside of Doc's Browning holster that came with the First model M&P.


Front side, Browning flap holster.



Dick

 

[DWalt]

I hope there are some holster experts here. I am not aware of the existence of Browning-made (or marked) holsters and would like to know more. No question it is the Model of 1899, aka the .38 Hand Ejector, first model. Regarding SN 74xx, that suggests shipment from the factory was probably made in in 1900, but 1901 shipment is possible, based upon the relatively small number of nearby 1899 SNs on my list. However, that is based on the assumption that yours is chambered for the .38 Special as you said (it was also available chambered for the .32-20, and those are serial numbered separately from those in .38 Special). In any event, all of the M1899 .32-20 revolvers had the barrel stamped with that caliber. Those in .38 Special lacked any barrel caliber stamping until somewhere in the high 6xxx - low 7xxx SN range. So does your barrel have a caliber stamp on it?

 

[mikepriwer]

Jerry

DWalt asked the important (to some of us) question about the caliber roll marking on the
left side of the barrel. I have an active survey running , to determine when the caliber
roll marking started, for the Model of 1899. If possible, please let us know if the
gun has a caliber roll marking on the left side of the barrel, and if so, what does it
say ?

The following two lines are from the survey. The first entry is the serial number, and
what follows is caliber roll marking.

7311* no caliber roll marking
7583* .38 S&W SPECIAL CTG

All specimens earlier than 7311 have no caliber roll marking. All specimens after
7583 have the caliber roll marking, as shown. If you participate in the survey, I need
the full serial number. No names are included in the survey.

Here is an example of a 1907-ish revolver with the caliber roll marking.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[turnerriver]

Browning marked holsters were usually made by Heiser, a photo of your holster with the revolver would be much appreciated as well.
I moved your post to the proper forum.
Regards,

Glad I said usually-that one was not made by Heiser. Browning Bros. in Ogden, Utah sold guns, obviously, and accessories as well. They sold Heiser holsters and other maker's goods . This holster was a cut above hardware and sporting goods holsters seen in lesser establishments. Here's another example.


Here is a Browning stamp on a Heiser holster-Heiser had this stamp at their shop.


Sorry to get so far afield from the original subject.
Regards,
turnerriver

 

[sixshot]

I believe the Doc. is still at a funeral but I checked the gun over quite closely & so did my gunsmith son & there is no caliber stamping on the gun but it a 38 special. I will try & get more photo's tomorrow, I'm headed to my grandson's ballgame right now.

Dick

 

[DWalt]

I believe the Doc. is still at a funeral but I checked the gun over quite closely & so did my gunsmith son & there is no caliber stamping on the gun but it a 38 special. I will try & get more photo's tomorrow, I'm headed to my grandson's ballgame right now.

Dick

That does refine the possible caliber roll stamp starting point a little.

 

[mikepriwer]

Can we get the full serial number, so that I can include this gun in the study ?
Here is the link to the study - go to post #48

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...del-1899-serial-numbers-3.html?highlight=1899

Mike Priwer

 

[kthom]

"PS This is my first experience on a forum so any suggestions to streamline or make my note less verbose, please offer suggestions.

Doc,
I found you post very interesting to read and for me, it is not to verbose. But then again, I tend to probably put to much information in my posts and take up more space than many who might say the same thing in less words. I suspect this is because of the need for my investigative reports to contain enough detail to be able to fully testify to the facts several years later after the incident, with hundreds or thousands of incidents happening during the interim. I also suspect that you found it necessary to make full and detailed reports of many things in your profession. I appreciate your post and enjoyed reading what you had to say. The only thing that would improve your post for us are the pictures that have already been requested. Welcome to the forum. We look forward to getting better acquainted with you.

And you might guess that any revolver, especially an S&W, that saw long and honorable service for someone who worked as a peace officer in any capacity is definitely of interest to me and I daresay, most of us here!

 

[Ed Fowler]

Welcome to the forum Doctor and thanks for sharing. Nothing wrong with your post as far as I am concerned.

 

[mikepriwer]

Jerry

Thanks for the serial number. I added it to the study. This was an important number
to add, because it fills in the gap between no caliber roll marking, and a point where
the markings begin.

I have to admit that I am surprised by the apparent results of the study, which suggests
that this demarcation point has been more/less established. Because the gun are not
made in serial number order, I had expected a region where some guns have caliber
roll markings, and others do not. Within the region of 7000 to 8000, I still expect that
to happen, if we get more specimens in that range.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[rbrbrb6]

Welcome to the forum Doc. I was just getting to suggest that you get ahold of Dick when I saw he had already posted pictures for you. Between him, Shane and the rest of the guys here, they ought to help ascertain exactly what it is you have there.

Robb