Recommendations for .38spl Self-Defense Ammo

[PlatypusWithaGun]

I have a S&W 686 Plus 4" Revolver in .357 Magnum/.38 Special rated for +P. I'm looking for good standard pressure self-defense hollow point ammo. Almost all of the articles I've read so far say +P is the way to go but they're all talking about snubnose guns that need the extra oomph to compensate for the detriments inherent in small guns. I'm a new shooter so the greater recoil in +P ammo is a concern for me, especially if I actually find myself in a real self-defense situation (god forbid) and overpenetration is always a concern. So that's why I'm looking for standard pressure hollow points only, at least until it becomes abundantly clear that it's +P or bust. Any and all recommendations welcome.

 

[326MOD10]

I would suggest you try a few rounds of 38+P to see if it truly is an issue for you. Your 686 will dampen that recoil and you may find it very pleasant.

The 38 Special in general needs a boost at times and that is why +P came about, not necessarily the snubby needing it to help with expansion. In reality with a snubby, and ammo not made specifically for the snubby, you sometimes find much of the powder goes un-burned and the power is negated.

Hornady has some non +P 158 grain HP rounds that work pretty well.

I have also sent you a PM to a place that performed ballistic test on most SD rounds. It will show you what is good and what is bad from your 4" barrel length.

Good luck.

 

[SlamFire]

The case of +P 38 Special I fired through a M66 was a little stiffer than standard 38 Special, but nothing compared to a 158 grain 357 load

4" M66-2

Reloads in 38 Special cases:

This was a standard 25 yard target load, however due to bullet tumbling at 50 yards, I am thinking of bumping it up. 

148gr LBBWC 2.7 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers
17-Oct-93 T = 65-70°F				
Ave Vel =704fps		
Std Dev =18			
ES =57	 		
High  =742			
Low  =685			
N =6			
				
					
Zero  Factory 158gr LSWC-HP + P	
16-Aug-92   T = 75°F

Ave Vel =877 fps	 		 
Std Dev =23		 		
ES=77		 		
High=923		 		
Low==846		 		
N =6				
				 	
This load, 3.5 grains Bullseye with a 158 is my "standard" 38 Special load. Recoil is easy to handle, very accurate in all my 38 Specials. 
			 	
158gr LSWC 3.5 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers, Dillon Loads17-Oct-93 T = 65-70°F
Ave Vel =764	fps			 
Std Dev =13				
ES=40				
High=776			
Low=736				
N =6			
					
158gr LSWC 3.75 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers, Dillon Loads 17-Oct-93 T = 65-70°F
Ave Vel =779 fps			 
Std Dev =19			
ES=61				
High=819			 	
Low=758				
N =6

reload in 357 Magnum case:

158gr Rem JHP 13.5 grs 2400 R-P primed cases 
16-Aug-92 T = 75 °F   
    
Ave Vel = 1227    
Std Dev = 14   
ES  = 34    
Low  = 1209    
High  = 1243   
N = 6

As mentioned previously, a M686 has a underlug barrel, you will hardly feel the difference between a standard 38 load and a +P.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

The "Treasury Load" used by the Treasury Department and US Secret Service was highly respected...a .38 Special 110 grain JHP +P+. It may be difficult to find new but Winchester loads it to the same spec in a .357 Magnum case.

But if you're insisting on non-+P loads...there are some very good loads from all the major ammo makers. Look at the various 125 grain JHP loadings up through 158 grain. You should certainly find something you and your gun likes.

 

[Frailer]

As has already been suggested, if you haven’t shot any +P ammo through your revolver I wouldn’t dismiss them out of hand. While the difference in recoil when shot through a lightweight J-frame is indeed noticeable, a 4” L-frame is a totally different animal.

Odds are you’d be hard-pressed to tell the difference between +P and standard pressure ammo in your gun.

 

[stansdds]

38 Special +P in a 357 Magnum revolver usually does not produce that much recoil. I would suggest Speer's 135 grain Gold Dot 38 Special +P or Remington's 125 grain Golden Saber 38 Special +P.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

If you can locate any (?) the Federal HST Micro 38 Special +P 130gr JHPWC (P38HST1S) is my recommended load and certainly won't unduly stress your L-frame...

Or, most likely, your wrist either.

Cheers!

 

[johngalt]

There is very little difference between standard pressure and +P. A 4" 686 is around 40 oz, which does a very good job of soaking up recoil. I highly recommend getting a variety of ammo in both standard and +P pressure and experiment.

These days, the best ammo choice will likely be "what's on the shelf".

Any ammo is better than no ammo.

 

[rct269]

A few words about +P------and fishing tackle:

Most folks will tell you fishing tackle is made to catch fish. Some will tell you it's made to sell to fishermen.

So too is the case with +P. +P came to be as the ammunition companies took note of the very significant increase in the number of carry permits being issued throughout the country. The more astute of the ammo folks saw this as an opportunity to make a buck. Enter +P.

Let's take a look at some of the history of the .38 Special round. It's not going to be anything approaching the complete history for the simple reason I don't have the complete history----just enough to make my point.

In the beginning, 1925 in this instance because I have data starting there. The muzzle velocity of the tried and true 158 grain bullet load was 858 fps. It was something in the neighborhood of 950 before that, but I neither know what nor when.

Time passed and things changed thus that today that standard load does 755 fps. Another thing I don't know about is when and why the drop to 755 came about.

Now for the same load in +P today----890 fps.

The first thing I'm wondering about is what's all this talk about the increased recoil of +P? Maybe the increase above the 755 fps round?

The next thing I'm wondering about is the guns "Rated for +P". I'm wondering about what they were rated for before that? They weren't rated for anything in the early 30's when the 38/44 S&W Special was around----at 1226 fps, although S&W "recommended" those rounds not be used in everyday .38 Special revolvers. I wonder if that recommendation was designed to get folks to buy the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman models? Make sense?

I could go on---and on, but we all know the ammo companies know full well what's in store for them if they put out a product that damages either a gun or a shooter. They know they're going to be standing in front of a judge listening to him spell out how many gazillions of dollars they're going to have to pay out to injured parties or their guns----and they're doing their damnedest to make sure that never happens!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[WR Moore]

OK, I'm not gonna bother with the "ammo back when vs ammo now" BS. To be kind, the book velocities back then bore little relation to what the ammo produced in real guns.

There's a lot of wisdom in post #9.

Absolutely the most important factor in incapacitating an attacker is bullet placement, but that bullet must penetrate deeply enough to reach vital areas. At the same time some expansion is nice for several reasons, not exiting the aggressor being only one. +P will aid you in that.

I did the math on a 125 gr JHP bullet launched at 1000 f/s (+P) in a 686 Plus revolver. The recoil is a whopping (sarcasm) 2.7 ft/lbs. The gun itself is 2.375 lbs.

I wouldn't use ammunition intended for use in compact/short barrel guns in a revolver with a 4 inch barrel. Remington and Speer use different bullets in the short barrel loads than they use in regular ammunition (Speer uses different bullets in .38 short barrel, .38 standard and .357 Magnum). They may also use different powders. The extra velocity might result in over expansion and a lack of penetration needed to reach vital areas.

 

[cd228]

Stop scaring yourself with the R word (recoil) in relation to .38 SPL. It's been my observation that the anticipation of recoil creates more issues then the recoil itself. .38 SPL +p isn't that bad if your technique is good. That said .357, .44 magnum, 12 gauge recoil can be stout and should be respected.

If you can get Speer 135 gr +P GDHPs, it'll work. 158 Lead Semi Wadcutter +Ps from Federal or Remington will work too. Heavy for caliber 135 and up seems to be in at the moment. Though if you shot me with a high velocity 125 gr, I'd bleed.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

If you don't mind let me correct your opening statement and if I misstate this I'll get corrected, I assure you:

I have a S&W 686 Plus 4" Revolver in .357 Magnum/.38 Special rated for +P.

All S&W 686 revolvers are .357 Magnum revolvers and they are not "rated" for .38 Special, regular or +P, they are compatible because both the .357 Magnum and .38 Special fire a .357 inch diameter bullet. The case length is the main physical difference. Having a longer case means that the .357 Magnum is more powerful, it has more pressure, velocity, and recoil than the .38 Special. The rest of the specifications and details you can always look up. The so-called +P rating is only found in revolvers chambered for the .38 Special, not the .357 Magnum.

I hope that clarifies that point.

Your M686+ will have, to my mind, and hands, negligible recoil when you load it with .38 Special ammunition, including +P - which you do not need.

So, the question becomes what .38 Special ammunition works best for you and why.

Practice with inexpensive full metal jacket 158 grain ammunition. Choose one or two quality, "defensive loads" and, after practice, run a few cylinders full with those and see how they feel and choose your favorite.

Hollow point .38 Special is my choice in my 686+ revolvers.

 

[Uraldriver]

I use 357 Magnum Silvertips in my Model 13 but all of my speed strips have 38 +p loads since I carry 38 revolvers now and again. For +P 38 loads I like the Remington 125 grain SJHP and the Federal 120 grain Punch ammo.

 

[326MOD10]

A few words about +P------and fishing tackle:

Most folks will tell you fishing tackle is made to catch fish. Some will tell you it's made to sell to fishermen.

So too is the case with +P. +P came to be as the ammunition companies took note of the very significant increase in the number of carry permits being issued throughout the country. The more astute of the ammo folks saw this as an opportunity to make a buck. Enter +P.

Let's take a look at some of the history of the .38 Special round. It's not going to be anything approaching the complete history for the simple reason I don't have the complete history----just enough to make my point.

In the beginning, 1925 in this instance because I have data starting there. The muzzle velocity of the tried and true 158 grain bullet load was 858 fps. It was something in the neighborhood of 950 before that, but I neither know what nor when.

Time passed and things changed thus that today that standard load does 755 fps. Another thing I don't know about is when and why the drop to 755 came about.

Now for the same load in +P today----890 fps.

The first thing I'm wondering about is what's all this talk about the increased recoil of +P? Maybe the increase above the 755 fps round?

The next thing I'm wondering about is the guns "Rated for +P". I'm wondering about what they were rated for before that? They weren't rated for anything in the early 30's when the 38/44 S&W Special was around----at 1226 fps, although S&W "recommended" those rounds not be used in everyday .38 Special revolvers. I wonder if that recommendation was designed to get folks to buy the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman models? Make sense?

I could go on---and on, but we all know the ammo companies know full well what's in store for them if they put out a product that damages either a gun or a shooter. They know they're going to be standing in front of a judge listening to him spell out how many gazillions of dollars they're going to have to pay out to injured parties or their guns----and they're doing their damnedest to make sure that never happens!!

Ralph Tremaine

Can you tell me where your information came from?

Everything I have read said +P was developed by Law Enforcement and in fact in 1972, when it came about, was marketed to police only.

I have been around for a few years, as has concealed carry, but the boom in concealed carry really didn't start until 1990's maybe but for sure in the 2000's.

Now if you want to tell me the variety of ammo that is available now in +P is due to marketing to the CC crowd, I would go along with that.

The pressure and FPS stuff changed when SAMMI changed some measuring standards in the 70's.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

For what it is worth the estimated increase per inch in barrel length in 38 Special +P is approximately 20-30 fps...

In my personal opinion this would be unlikely to produce the negative effects as described in the last sentence of post #11. SPEER's load data is identical for both the "regular" & short barrel versions.in 45acp for their 230 gr GDHP.

Just an IMHO.

Cheers!

 

[Bald1]

In that 686 I doubt you’d feel any difference in recoil between standard pressure and +p. I don’t notice it in my 2” model 10. I’d say try the old standby 158 +p SWC FBI load. Should be plenty accurate and low recoil. I like Federals version.

 

[Matt_X]

For what it is worth the estimated increase per inch in barrel length in 38 Special +P is approximately 20-30 fps...

In my personal opinion this would be unlikely to produce the negative effects as described in the last sentence of post #11. SPEER's load data is identical for both the "regular" & short barrel versions.in 45acp for their 230 gr GDHP.

Just an IMHO.

Cheers!

This is probably a topic where there is enough variation from one load to another, where broad statements are probably not great guidance to the newcomer.


In this series of tests, we see Speer 135gr GD Short barrell +P .38 Spl went from an avg of 830 fps with a 2" barrel to 890 fps with 4" revolver. It seemed to help expansion slightly and little effect on penetration.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

In contrast, the Remington 125 gr Golden Sabre +P gained 110 fps with the 4" revolver, had greater expansion but almost 1.5" less penetration.

Another interesting cartridge to compare are Hornady's 110 gr FTX as they were tested in both std pressure and +P. If we were going to make a decision based soley on these tests (and I wouldn't ), the +P in a 4" revolver appears to be a poor choice due to poor penetration that occompanied the higher velocity and greater (or early) expansion.

 

[Matt_X]

My .02 for Platypus.
Find a defensive round that is relatively available and has some of evidence of expanding. For example in the LG Lab comparisons, it appears Federal's 158 gr. lead semi-wadcutter hollow point is either too slow or too hard to expand reliably. Whereas the Remington version performed as advertised.



With a full size revolver and 4" barrel, choose a mid to heavy weight bullet. The heavier bullet will cause slightly more muzzle rise but also help combustion and carry better.



Find a target cartridge with similar weight bullet for practice. The reason is your goal will be to have defense rounds hit at the same point of impact as your target rounds. Maybe at first your shooting isn't skilled enough to observe this, but using a similar weight bullet will generally help.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I have a S&W 686 Plus 4" Revolver in .357 Magnum/.38 Special rated for +P.

I have the same revolver for Home Protection. Winchester 38 Special +P 125 JHP is what my Police Department was issuing when I retired. So I am good with that.

Don't over think it.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Find a target cartridge with similar weight bullet for practice. The reason is your goal will be to have defense rounds hit at the same point of impact as your target rounds. Maybe at first your shooting isn't skilled enough to observe this, but using a similar weight bullet will generally help.

That is why Winchester White Box is a 130 grain plated bullet for practice and Winchester 125 grain JHP for defense.