I recently bought a M&M 9 full size not CORE just ordered a apex trigger as the stock one is a not very good. This is my first experience with auto in a long time my sight alignment is not too good. Is there a base mount to use a optical for this gun . Not using for SD just home and range been carrying a model 36 chief for 50 years no reason to change now. Would like red dot for range, probably should have got a C.O.R.E
red dot on M&P 9 full size
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Steved13
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There are dovetail mounts that will work, but you loose the irons.
Best is spend a few dollars and have it milled for a good red dot. When it is milled, it will lower the optic so it is closer to the bore axis, and make it easier to find the dot, lowering the learning curve. Having it milled for a specific sight is actually the best way to go, as long as you are sure about the sight. The CORE option gives you some flexibility as far as different red dots, but then you have a mounting plate and raises the sight up a little bit.
Best is spend a few dollars and have it milled for a good red dot. When it is milled, it will lower the optic so it is closer to the bore axis, and make it easier to find the dot, lowering the learning curve. Having it milled for a specific sight is actually the best way to go, as long as you are sure about the sight. The CORE option gives you some flexibility as far as different red dots, but then you have a mounting plate and raises the sight up a little bit.
okiegtrider
Member
I have been wrestling this same issue recently myself. I first started looking around at dovetail mounts. The one from Dueck Defense first caught my eye. Seems solid and tough. And costs about as much as having a slide milled. There are definitely cheaper dovetail mounts out there.
Red Dot Back Up Sight Base
As I got a little deeper into researching this idea I read several threads on this subject on the board. Also talked to a couple people here with some more experience with red dots on handguns.
I also found gun that I could shoot and carry for a while to try it out some. The gun I borrowed was a G23 that had been milled to accomodate an RMR. The same fellow also has a C.O.R.E. with an RMR on it. I picked his brain quite a bit about the ins and outs of shooting with a reflex sight and the pros and cons of milling vs optic ready guns.
In the end, I decided to get a gun I already own milled to accept a reflex sight. In fact I shipped my slide just this week to ATEi | Turning good guns into combat weapons systems
There a lots of options out there for milling, this just the one I picked. Great reviews for this place and their work.
Steved13, Rastoff, CB3 all gave me some good info and the benefit of their experience on this topic, not to mention my buddy who loaned me his G23 for a couple weeks.
This post from CB3 does a great job of summing up this question for me, YMMV
I tell you all that to say, you may already have the gun you want, but might want to take it a step further if RDS is for you.
Red Dot Back Up Sight Base
As I got a little deeper into researching this idea I read several threads on this subject on the board. Also talked to a couple people here with some more experience with red dots on handguns.
I also found gun that I could shoot and carry for a while to try it out some. The gun I borrowed was a G23 that had been milled to accomodate an RMR. The same fellow also has a C.O.R.E. with an RMR on it. I picked his brain quite a bit about the ins and outs of shooting with a reflex sight and the pros and cons of milling vs optic ready guns.
In the end, I decided to get a gun I already own milled to accept a reflex sight. In fact I shipped my slide just this week to ATEi | Turning good guns into combat weapons systems
There a lots of options out there for milling, this just the one I picked. Great reviews for this place and their work.
Steved13, Rastoff, CB3 all gave me some good info and the benefit of their experience on this topic, not to mention my buddy who loaned me his G23 for a couple weeks.
This post from CB3 does a great job of summing up this question for me, YMMV
I tell you all that to say, you may already have the gun you want, but might want to take it a step further if RDS is for you.
I am not quite sure what performance you are trying to get from using your M&P as a "range gun". I understand your eyes are having trouble focusing on and aligning the iron sights with your target. Welcome to the club.
A red dot sight (RDS) will help old eyes by giving more latitude for sight alignment. Also, they allow you to shoot with both eyes open, focused on the target, not the sight. So, you don't need to be able to see little iron sights at different close focal planes.
Used correctly, an RDS is faster than aligning iron sights. Since the dot can "float" in the RDS window, you have a greater margin for error in sighting. You ignore [the misalignment of] the iron sights, put the dot that is anywhere in the window onto the target, and that's where the bullet will go. This can be very fast, but probably not quite as accurate as carefully aligning your iron sights.
For a range gun, if you are after accuracy, I think going slowly and aligning iron sights will give you more precision. The RDS are more for speed, as in self defense and competition. An RDS would be a convenience for you and make range trips more fun because the sighting system will be easier and more forgiving, but you may be shooting larger groups.
Even if you do go with a RDS, you should still retain traditional iron sights, with the rear sight behind the optic and adjustable for windage. The sights should be tall enough to appear in the bottom 1/4 of the RDS.
This does two things:
1. It allows you to use traditional iron sight alignment any time you want, including if the optic fails.
2. It provides a training mechanism for you to use the RDS, as the dot when properly adjusted co-witnesses with the iron sights.
This means when you have the iron sights properly adjusted and sighted in on your target so you get centered groups, THEN you adjust the RDS to hit that same spot.
Thus, when your dot is perfectly aligned with your perfectly aligned iron sights, they will both hit the same spot. You can use either sighting system independently to get the same hit. You can ignore the iron sights and get the correct hit with the RDS. You can turn off the RDS (no dot appears) and get the hits you want with aligned iron sights. You have two independent sighting systems that do the same thing the same way when they are aligned with each other.
With this setup, you can learn to "present" your pistol consistently so it is pointed in to the target. You do this with dry practice at home by dozens of reps dozens of times presenting your pistol and aligning your iron sights onto the target. You can do this without purchasing the RDS, but if you already have it mounted, turn it off. Speed will come, as there is no pressure at home so you can accomplish good, repeatable presentations, even with aging eyesight.
If your eyes cannot see your irons well enough, you can skip this step and just learn to present the pistol straight toward the target in dry practice with the RDS on. The dot appears in the window when you have your grip and presentation correct.
Getting a rear sight dove tail mount for an optic is a subpar way of achieving red dot mounting. It would be better to find someone with a properly mounted RDS and try their gun at the range, with some good coaching. If you decide to go the RDS route, choose the best optic you can afford and have your slide milled for that specific sight. Choosing a low-end sight will make your whole gun low end.
Lots of threads here on this subject, and on other boards. Well worth researching and taking some time to understand the concept.
A red dot sight (RDS) will help old eyes by giving more latitude for sight alignment. Also, they allow you to shoot with both eyes open, focused on the target, not the sight. So, you don't need to be able to see little iron sights at different close focal planes.
Used correctly, an RDS is faster than aligning iron sights. Since the dot can "float" in the RDS window, you have a greater margin for error in sighting. You ignore [the misalignment of] the iron sights, put the dot that is anywhere in the window onto the target, and that's where the bullet will go. This can be very fast, but probably not quite as accurate as carefully aligning your iron sights.
For a range gun, if you are after accuracy, I think going slowly and aligning iron sights will give you more precision. The RDS are more for speed, as in self defense and competition. An RDS would be a convenience for you and make range trips more fun because the sighting system will be easier and more forgiving, but you may be shooting larger groups.
Even if you do go with a RDS, you should still retain traditional iron sights, with the rear sight behind the optic and adjustable for windage. The sights should be tall enough to appear in the bottom 1/4 of the RDS.
This does two things:
1. It allows you to use traditional iron sight alignment any time you want, including if the optic fails.
2. It provides a training mechanism for you to use the RDS, as the dot when properly adjusted co-witnesses with the iron sights.
This means when you have the iron sights properly adjusted and sighted in on your target so you get centered groups, THEN you adjust the RDS to hit that same spot.
Thus, when your dot is perfectly aligned with your perfectly aligned iron sights, they will both hit the same spot. You can use either sighting system independently to get the same hit. You can ignore the iron sights and get the correct hit with the RDS. You can turn off the RDS (no dot appears) and get the hits you want with aligned iron sights. You have two independent sighting systems that do the same thing the same way when they are aligned with each other.
With this setup, you can learn to "present" your pistol consistently so it is pointed in to the target. You do this with dry practice at home by dozens of reps dozens of times presenting your pistol and aligning your iron sights onto the target. You can do this without purchasing the RDS, but if you already have it mounted, turn it off. Speed will come, as there is no pressure at home so you can accomplish good, repeatable presentations, even with aging eyesight.
If your eyes cannot see your irons well enough, you can skip this step and just learn to present the pistol straight toward the target in dry practice with the RDS on. The dot appears in the window when you have your grip and presentation correct.
Getting a rear sight dove tail mount for an optic is a subpar way of achieving red dot mounting. It would be better to find someone with a properly mounted RDS and try their gun at the range, with some good coaching. If you decide to go the RDS route, choose the best optic you can afford and have your slide milled for that specific sight. Choosing a low-end sight will make your whole gun low end.
Lots of threads here on this subject, and on other boards. Well worth researching and taking some time to understand the concept.
Last edited:
okiegtrider
Member
More good stuff from CB.
Using a rear sight replacement rail to mount the optic is a good short term option @ <$100 to test out whether a red dot is right for you. It avoids permanently altering your slide if you are still undecided about an RDS.
There are still drawbacks, however, as the RDS will be mounted much higher than it should be, and height-above-bore will affect your sighting negatively. The iron sights, while apparently still usable, will not cowitness through the RDS, making it harder to use, especially initially. Thus, it is not an accurate comparison to shooting a properly mounted RDS.
Really, if you can try someone else's properly mounted RDS, even if it's on a CORE, without any expense to you to see if an RDS will help you, that is the easy button, assuming you can find such a person near you. I really believe the RDS system can be learned and used by anyone, so it's a question of needs, priorities and expense.
If you make the decision to go with an RDS, the slide milling is usually about $130, which is not a lot more than sight mounted option. It is permanent, but if you opt for a mating slide plate that fills the milling when an RDS is not mounted, the gun is not "ruined" for shooting without an RDS, even it has the higher suppressor sights installed.
There are still drawbacks, however, as the RDS will be mounted much higher than it should be, and height-above-bore will affect your sighting negatively. The iron sights, while apparently still usable, will not cowitness through the RDS, making it harder to use, especially initially. Thus, it is not an accurate comparison to shooting a properly mounted RDS.
Really, if you can try someone else's properly mounted RDS, even if it's on a CORE, without any expense to you to see if an RDS will help you, that is the easy button, assuming you can find such a person near you. I really believe the RDS system can be learned and used by anyone, so it's a question of needs, priorities and expense.
If you make the decision to go with an RDS, the slide milling is usually about $130, which is not a lot more than sight mounted option. It is permanent, but if you opt for a mating slide plate that fills the milling when an RDS is not mounted, the gun is not "ruined" for shooting without an RDS, even it has the higher suppressor sights installed.
Using a rear sight replacement rail to mount the optic is a good short term option @ <$100 to test out whether a red dot is right for you. It avoids permanently altering your slide if you are still undecided about an RDS.
There are still drawbacks, however, as the RDS will be mounted much higher than it should be, and height-above-bore will affect your sighting negatively. The iron sights, while apparently still usable, will not cowitness through the RDS, making it harder to use, especially initially. Thus, it is not an accurate comparison to shooting a properly mounted RDS.
Really, if you can try someone else's properly mounted RDS, even if it's on a CORE, without any expense to you to see if an RDS will help you, that is the easy button, assuming you can find such a person near you. I really believe the RDS system can be learned and used by anyone, so it's a question of needs, priorities and expense.
If you make the decision to go with an RDS, the slide milling is usually about $130, which is not a lot more than sight mounted option. It is permanent, but if you opt for a mating slide plate that fills the milling when an RDS is not mounted, the gun is not "ruined" for shooting without an RDS, even if it has the higher suppressor sights installed.
There are still drawbacks, however, as the RDS will be mounted much higher than it should be, and height-above-bore will affect your sighting negatively. The iron sights, while apparently still usable, will not cowitness through the RDS, making it harder to use, especially initially. Thus, it is not an accurate comparison to shooting a properly mounted RDS.
Really, if you can try someone else's properly mounted RDS, even if it's on a CORE, without any expense to you to see if an RDS will help you, that is the easy button, assuming you can find such a person near you. I really believe the RDS system can be learned and used by anyone, so it's a question of needs, priorities and expense.
If you make the decision to go with an RDS, the slide milling is usually about $130, which is not a lot more than sight mounted option. It is permanent, but if you opt for a mating slide plate that fills the milling when an RDS is not mounted, the gun is not "ruined" for shooting without an RDS, even if it has the higher suppressor sights installed.
Informative posts like yours are one of the reasons I'm such a big fan of this forum. I recently installed my first RDS (a Vortex Venom) on my FNX-45 Tactical. While the Vortex instruction booklet gave excellent guidance on installation and co-witness sight-in, it said nothing about how to use it! Because I'd set it up to co-witness, I'd been using the dot as a very bright front sight, always carefully aligning it with the rear sights. I had no idea that I could ignore the iron sights, simply put the dot on-target, and still shoot well. After reading your post, I went to the range and had a blast making surprisingly accurate shots with the red dot located in all corners of the sight.
Thanks for the excellent write-up, CB3!
okiegtrider
Member
Very much agree! I'm a red dot noob myself and find CB3's posts on the subject very helpful and well written.
