Red Dot vs 1x4 Illuminated Reticle Scope

[bodark]

I am going to install an optic on my new sport to help my "old eyes". I will be shooting from 10 to 100 yards (HD and target). A Red Dot will work fine for the shorter ranges, but I am curious if a 1x4 Illuminated Reticle Scope would be even better by giving me a Red Dot at shorter ranges and a 4x scope for longer ranges. I would appreciate your opinions and guidance.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

1x red dot is for fast target acquisition. Unlimited eye relief and no precise alignment with the optic is required, and can be used in tandem with iron sights, Once you get a magnified optic that's over.

If you just want to sit at a station and shoot at a bullseye get a magnified optic. Illumination isn't required and typically darkens the glass with cheap lens coatings unless you get a quality scope.


If you want a magnified optic that you can seriously count on for self defense that has a dot type reticle, look at the Trijicon TR24. Leupold has a cross hair and lit dot that they call FireDot which is a good one, and Vortex makes a good one too. There is lots of other low and mid-priced 1-4x junk like Millet and Primary Arms.

 

[bhayles]

1x red dot is for fast target acquisition. Unlimited eye relief and no precise alignment with the optic is required, and can be used in tandem with iron sights,

Once you get a magnified optic that's over​

.

There is lots of other low and mid-priced 1-4x j

unk like​

Millet and

Primary Arms.​

I have to disagree Phil. I actually OWN and USE the Primary Arms 2.5X red dot scope with the ACSS CQB-M reticle.

I cannot afford the expensive glass, but I HAVE used several and the PA compares well. Thanks to the reticle it IS a good optic for CQB even though it is magnified and the quality is FAR from junk.

I've never been in the military, much less combat, so how would I know if it is a good battle optic, both at a 2.5X and in close quarters? Two of my nephews have 16 years combat experience between them in Iraq and Afghanistan. Both shared your opinion of the scope when hearing it described. Both also changed their tune after getting their hands on mine.

Both have said they would gladly carry this PA into combat.

 

[Little Creek]

In my experience, a red dot will work out to 100 yards, no problem. I you want to shoot tiny groups then go with a scope. I have red dot and scope sights. I have a Leupold Mark AR Mod 1 1.5-4 with SPC reticle and an illuminated green dot. This scope has a 1" tube. It works great well beyond 100 yards. Is it as good as an unmagnified red dot sight up close? Not quite. I also have a Leupold VX-R 1.25-4 30mm tube scope with an SPC red dot reticle. It is better up close and all around than the Mark AR scope (costs about 50% more too).

 

[one eye joe]

WELCOME TO THE FORUM, BODARK. I HAVE COMPROMISED VISION ALSO. I HAVE USED AIMPOINT AND ULTRADOT RED DOT SIGHTS ON HANDGUNS, INDOORS IN BULLSEYE COMPETITION FOR YEARS. IMHO, THERE IS NO EQUAL OUT TO 100 YARDS OR SO--HANDGUN HUNTING RANGE. WHEN IT COMES TO RIFLE USE AT RANGES OUT TO 300 YARDS (THE LONGEST RANGE THAT I HAVE ACCESS TO) I WOULD GO WITH THE LEUPOLD VX-R VARIABLE WITH THE ILLUMINATED RED DOT RETICLE. I HAVE ONE ON MY BUSHMASTER VARMINTER, AND IT DOES THE JOB…...

 

[cyphertext]

Both have said they would gladly carry this PA into combat.

The owner of Primary Arms would disagree with your nephews... He makes no bones about the quality of his products. They are great for range and recreational use, but he does not recommend his own product for duty use.

Primary Arms, LLC: Why Three Versions of Primary Arms Micro Dot?

"Keep in mind we do NOT endorse these products for combat or duty use. While Primary Arms strives to sell quality, well made products, they are not made to the same specifications as an Aimpoint or Eotech (thus the price difference)."

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

My 1x red dot is perfect for 200yds. That's the idea behind a 50yd zero with a 1x red dot.

At the Club, shoot off hand at steel plate the size of upper torso at 200yds. Bring the rifle up fast, bang. Better hear a ding. That's what an AR and a 1x red dot is all about IMO.

 

[arrtkid]

I share with you the "old eyes" and have gone to using red dot to assure target acqusition. For close quarters I use an Eotech EXPS3, for more distance (100 yards) I combine with a G33 magnifier. You can move the magnifier out of the way to use just the reticle. The key is this is the best set up for me. I have tried several other red dots (usually a lot cheaper) and they just didn't quite satisfy me. Using a 1.5 to 4 power scope took away my quick target acqusition. Like you I'm not ready to call it quits and found a solution for my "old eyes".

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I have to disagree Phil. I actually OWN and USE the Primary Arms 2.5X red dot scope with the ACSS CQB-M reticle.

I cannot afford the expensive glass, but I HAVE used several and the PA compares well. Thanks to the reticle it IS a good optic for CQB even though it is magnified and the quality is FAR from junk.

I've never been in the military, much less combat, so how would I know if it is a good battle optic, both at a 2.5X and in close quarters? Two of my nephews have 16 years combat experience between them in Iraq and Afghanistan. Both shared your opinion of the scope when hearing it described. Both also changed their tune after getting their hands on mine.

Both have said they would gladly carry this PA into combat.

I was referring to the PA 1-4x $119. Hardly a combat optic.

That said, I agree with you that "junk" isn't appropriate description. They are what they are, not for duty optics. I have three, two PA MicroDot and a PA compact 4x. They have given me years of great service on my .22s, and lots of folks use them on ARs too.

 

[BillyJack2012]

I was referring to the PA 1-4x $119. Hardly a combat optic.

That said, I agree with you that "junk" isn't appropriate description. They are what they are, not for duty optics. I have three, two PA MicroDot and a PA compact 4x. They have given me years of great service on my .22s, and lots of folks use them on ARs too.

Agreed. I have 2 PA Micros, 1 30MM, 1 Multi-Retical (sold) and the 1-4x (sold). For multi use, close quarters, fast acquisition and mid range shooting, the red dot is the way to go. The 1-4 is fine but has limited eye relief and is not good for fast target acquisition. Perfect for a bench rest though. That said, I sold it and only use irons and red dots for anything out to 100 yards. And my eyes suck these days.

If you were going to go with a magnified optic, I'd consider the Primary Arms 1-6. The 1-4 was way too long for what it was and also very heavy. Just didn't do it for me.

 

[SGT_Lindy]

My 1x red dot is perfect for 200yds. That's the idea behind a 50yd zero with a 1x red dot.

At the Club, shoot off hand at steel plate the size of upper torso at 200yds. Bring the rifle up fast, bang. Better hear a ding. That's what an AR and a 1x red dot is all about IMO.

This!

Too many people buy and AR and then try to figure out philosophy of use for the rifle.

You should figure out what you want to use the rifle for before you buy it. There is nothing wrong with a scope on a AR, just realize that there is no perfect optic to rule them all.

My AR is for self defense. Min of head out to 200 yards (8 inch steel target) Min of man out to 300 yards IPSC steel target. I do this with a red-dot and those 200 and 300 yard shots are fully supported. Past 300 its a suppression rifle.

In reality I would probably never use it past 100yards (if that) for defense. I would rather retreat to and fight another day if the target was past 100 yards, especially if I can do so with out them knowing.

Any optic that has eye relief with be both slower and not as optimal at close ranges vs one that does not (scope vs red-dot).

 

[bodark]

I bought a UTG 1-4.5x28 illuminated reticle (mil dot) scope. I have not fully tested it yet, but so far I have learned a few things.

1. The scope is great at 50+ yards
2. The illumination is worthless in daylight
3. Acquisition is slower at short range

Basically, you guys were right in everything you stated. I will do some more shooting and then decide between the scope and the red dot. The deciding point probably will be the trade off between short range acquisition and longer range accuracy.

 

[Venenoindy]

If you want a fantastic magnified optic for the money with red dot capabilities take a look at the Mueller speed dot, I have one and can not be happier with it as has clear glass, true 1× and works fantastic as a red dot at CQB ranges. The only downside is the weight as with the mount adds quite some weight to your rifle compare to the red dot.
Mueller Speed Shot 1-4x24 » Mueller Optics

 

[Venenoindy]

Forgot to mention you will not find any other scope with the same quality for the the money.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

This!

Too many people buy and AR and then try to figure out philosophy of use for the rifle.

You should figure out what you want to use the rifle for before you buy it. There is nothing wrong with a scope on a AR, just realize that there is no perfect optic to rule them all.

Right.

But I think a lot of folks just want to have fun with a black rifle. They don't know what they want other than they want to have fun. They buy an optic and then adapt to the optic as best they can. There's the same guys at the Club who shoot their ARs hunched over a shooting table on bags using a 1x red dot to shoot as best they can little groups on paper. When I see that I see wrong gun, wrong optic. They seem to be having fun soooo..... ya know...

 

[SGT_Lindy]

"There's the same guys at the Club who shoot their ARs hunched over a shooting table on bags using a 1x red dot to shoot as best they can little groups on paper. When I see that I see wrong gun, wrong optic."

I do this at my range with my red-dots when I first mount them and every once and a while to verify they are still dead on. I will try to get them as tight as I can at 50 yards from the bench.

Average use when doing drills is not that slow and steady, but knowing that they are dead on if I am really trying means if I put the dot on it and pull the trigger when doing drills it should be on.

 

[Rastoff]

How many of us are ever going to use any of our guns for serious defense purposes? The closest most of us will ever come is at 3 gun matches.

I'm glad that many of you can use the red dot out to 300 yards. My ability is not there. Yes, I can hit a man sized target at 200 yards with a red dot. However, it's much easier with a 3x scope.

Yes, eye relief is an issue with magnified optics. Even so, if you set the gun up properly, the difference in speed should be so small as to be insignificant. I'm just as fast with my scope set to 3x as I am with the red dot. I also readily admit that I'm not fast.

My preferred optic would be an ACOG TA33. Alas, they are pricey.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Shooting offhand.... you bring up the rifle, hold 1x red dot center on that man sized target at 200yds, bang. All a magnified optic does is increase my target acquisition time, magnify my movement and slow things down. The idea is that man sized target is taking aim at me... need to get lead on target not agonize over which button on his shirt to aim at with a magnified optic. At least that's my view, but I live in the woods where fighting isn't likely to be over 200yds anyway. If I lived in the desert I might think much differently about my setup.

True, it's unlikely that any of my guns will be used in self defense, from my LCP to my Rem 700 .308. But each of them is designed to fill a role if required. Besides, it's a hobby too.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I do this at my range with my red-dots when I first mount them and every once and a while to verify they are still dead on. I will try to get them as tight as I can at 50 yards from the bench.

Average use when doing drills is not that slow and steady, but knowing that they are dead on if I am really trying means if I put the dot on it and pull the trigger when doing drills it should be on.

Right. The only time my AR is shot from the bench at paper is when zeroing. Otherwise, it's on a sling and banginng on steel or bouncing debris at the plinking range.

 

[ATF]

Another option would be to use a red dot magnifier which you can remove when you don't require it and still keep the red dot centered. Most scopes put quite some weight on a gun. I prefer to use a shotgun for HD and I have Aimpoints and Eotechs on them. But a TR24 would fit your requirements because if your eyes are "old" the red dot may look fuzzy but it'll still be accurate.