Refusing a Shipped Gun

[A-37]

Amos buys a S&W Model 29 from Andy in an on-line deal. Andy's FFL, Larry, ships the gun to Amos' FFL, Moe.

Larry calls Amos and tells him his gun is in and Amos arrives at the store to get the gun. Before doing the ATF paperwork, Amos examines the gun and notices that the cylinder SN doesn't match the frame's SN.

"Holy Moly!", exclaims Amos. "I don't want this ^%$# gun. You can return it to that #$&@ crook! I want my money back, including all shipping costs!"

Since the gun was never transferred to Amos, can Larry ship the gun directly back to Andy? Or must the gun be shipped to Andy's FFL?

I've heard that once you drop off a gun to your FFL, he owns it and once the receiving FFL gets it, HE owns it. T or F?

If you reply to this post, let me know whether or not you're an FFL.

 

[Bekeart]

Tain't so McGee

I've heard that once you drop off a gun to your FFL, he owns it and once the receiving FFL gets it, HE owns it. T or F?

The FFLs are NOT owners. They are agents acting for the individuals involved.

Not an FFL.

Bekeart

 

[nachogrande]

FALSE

While in an FFL's possession they would be responsible for it in the the event of fire or theft, they never owned it. NON FFL opinion. Amos should have read the fine print about the terms of the sale & rules of the org/sellers feedback etc if something like GB'R. Let the buyer beware. Hopefully there was an inspection period. Maybe a Misrepresented or not as advertised way out?

 

[TomkinsSP]

Not an FFL.
1. Don't buy guns you haven't caressed before paying for...
2. Don't go to a 'Stooge' to transact buisness.
3. Moe should explain its a Zondolfian Calvary Pistol or Upper Slovenian Federal Police surplus, and you know those arsenals love to mix and match parts.
4. Its not the FFL's fault you made a deal you now regret. Mor has nothing to do with shipping charges.
5. If Amos (a non-FFL) can ship a firearm to a gunsmith and havevit teturned directly to him then the recieving FFL can polish the front sight snd ship it back, unless Amos shipped it through an FFL, maybe, depending on what day of the week it is.
6. THIS ONE I AM CERTAIN OF! LARRY IS ALREADY ANDY'S FFL!
7. OH I AM SO CONFUSED. MAKE IT STOP.
8. If its entered into an FFLs book, I think, it has to go to another FFL , but if it wasn't entered it can just go back. Unless local law says it can't.
9. Larry did not need to be involved. The seller could have just shipped to Moe. Unless that is prohibited by local law.
10. Differential calculus anyone?

 

[Sevens]

Let's say you went to Ebay and won an auction for an old book. You mail off a check for $45 for this old book but when it arrives you find that there is a water stain on the cover and a couple pages are stuck together.

WHAT NOW?

Well, the scenario you laid out is the same thing, really. The book doesn't require a licensed 3rd party.

If you just got mad about the book and immediately shipped it back with no conversation with the seller, your net result would be no book and your $45 still gone.

Because it is a revolver, nothing is different.
Contact the seller and resolve the issue -OR- ship it back and have no revolver and no money. AND you pay for return shipping.

 

[Jack Flash]

Wouldn't the FFLs still have to get paid?

 

[TomkinsSP]

So if I am Catholic, and on a ship crossing the Pacific Ocean, and I am granted Absolution, by a Priest on the ship, for a sin committed less than 24 hours ago, and the ship crosses the International Date Line, and it is now hours BEFORE I actually committed the sin, and hours before I confessed same, and hours before I was granted absolution. Did I commit the sin, am I forgiven, do I get a 'freebie'?

And what happens if there is a storm, and to avoid it we have to cross the International Date Line again, but jumping to yesterday's tomorrow?

(a paraphrase of the late great George Carlin)

 

[codenamedave]

This is one of those "As I was going to St. Ives" questions, right?

Seller: Andy
Seller's FFL: Larry

Buyer: Amos
Buyer's FFL: Moe

"Larry calls Amos and tells him his gun is in and Amos arrives at the store to get the gun."

Larry was the shipping FFL, not the receiving one. When Amos goes to his shop, the gun's not there, because it's at Moes. Amos is looking at a different gun!

Did I get it right? Did I get it right?

One thing I know for sure is that Amos telling an FFL he wants his money back for a gun he had shipped there is pointless, unless he's looking for sympathy. As my sainted mother used to say: "Yeah, well, people in H*** want ice water."

ETA: IANAF

 

[eveled]

This is why it's sometimes hard to find an FFL to do a transfer.

 

[Retired LTC USAR]

To confusing for me to follow this early in the day.

 

[vonn]

The deal is between seller and buyer,up to them to reach agreement. pay FFL ,not his problem.

 

[Wee Hooker]

If I'm reading this right, the potential buyer who refuses the gun has no choice but to have the ffl ship it back ( and pay whatever costs it takes). The ffl is not going to let him walk out of the shop with it (unregistered) with a promise to send it back to the owner.

p.s. And there lies the risk in importing guns through an FFL. If the gun doesn't meet your expectations, it gets complicated and costly.
Remember, in most cases the receiving ffl is making $30-$40 on a transfer fee. It's unreasonable to ask them to spend allot of time/ energy attempting to resolve your issues.
Amos needs to suck it up, make all the arrangements directly with the seller and then pay his FFL to ship back to the original FFL (only).

 

[2152hq]

The rec'vg FFL (Larry) must ship the gun back to the sending FFL (Moe) OR to any other FFL in the State that Andy (seller/non-FFL) resides in. From there it will be transfered back to Andy by way of a 4473 & Nics check.

All arrangements as far as who pays shipping costs, which FFL to use, FFL copys exchanged, ect are and should all be settled up front before the transaction is even taken on.
Just in case such a return is needed.
As stated,,this is one reason many FFL's simply do not want to get involved with out of state transfers. They can get stuck in the middle.

The recv;g FFL cannot simply send the gun back to the non-FFL, only if the gun was sent in for a 'repair'.,,,,which is sometimes a way a gun in this situation is logged and then returned to a non-FFL just to sidestep all the above entanglement.
Not legal by any means, and a permanent false statement in your bound book. Not good! The book is archived forever.

Each FFL books the gun in and then out to either the FFL they ship to or the end customer that purchases it.
On file for the 'disposition/purchase' (outgoing record) in the book should be either an FFL copy or a 4473 of the person it went to.

 

[handejector]

I'm an FFL.

Did Andy get the gun from The Kingfish? Got a feeling he may be involved here.

Did Moe slap Larry? Where's Curly?

A Model 29 should not have a numbered cylinder. That would occur on Pre-29's.



I would NOT be able to ship the gun back to Andy.
I would have to ship it to an FFL. How would I positively know it came from Andy? I logged it in from the FFL that shipped it.

Ownership in this case is a moot point.
Example-
If you consign a gun to a dealer, you still own it, but if you want it back you are going to do a 4473 just like a purchase. IF the consigned gun is a C&R, and YOU have a C&R, it can be transferred back to you on the C&R.

 

[Rule3]

Is this kinda like this other thread with Moe and Larry?
Solve that hypothetical question yet?

Gun Transfers

My best friend (Barney)from 4th grade lives in Tn. He is a millionaire(he bought a rock quarry and found Gold) and has a big gun collection.
He only has a few months left to live and has no living relatives. Being a real generous guy and my best friend, he wants to give me (Fred) all his guns. His other assets will go to charity.

So can I just drive up there and put all his guns in my truck and drive home with them.??

I drive safely and will not get pulled over by the Police and have my car searched.

No one as a FFL CR or is a LEO.

 

[oneounceload]

If I'm reading this right, the potential buyer who refuses the gun has no choice but to have the ffl ship it back ( and pay whatever costs it takes). The ffl is not going to let him walk out of the shop with it (unregistered) with a promise to send it back to the owner.

p.s. And there lies the risk in importing guns through an FFL. If the gun doesn't meet your expectations, it gets complicated and costly.
Remember, in most cases the receiving ffl is making $30-$40 on a transfer fee. It's unreasonable to ask them to spend allot of time/ energy attempting to resolve your issues.
Amos needs to suck it up, make all the arrangements directly with the seller and then pay his FFL to ship back to the original FFL (only).

This has nothing to do with "registration", which I do not believe happens in Ohio.
The dispute is between the seller and buyer. If there was an agreed-upon inspection period, return the gun. If he is going to pay his FFL for the transfer, then the gun belongs to him and it is solely his responsibility to return it - and using a FFL is not a Federal requirement.

Assuming he can work out a return with the seller, he will be out shipping two way and at least one FFL transfer

 

[LoboGunLeather]

This entire argument actually revolves around the representations made by the seller prior to purchase and the terms of sale implicitly accepted when the offer to purchase was made.

Unless the piece was not substantially as described the sale relies upon the terms stated and accepted. All questions must be asked and answered before I will enter a bid, and unless the terms of sale specify an inspection period or privilege the item has been sold "as is".

Before bidding on any on-line offerings I like to send a question or two to the seller to see how responsive he might be. If unresponsive (or evasive) prior to the sale I suspect that he won't be very responsive to problems after the sale.

 

[Absalom]

This actually should get discussed more often, because many people do not understand the implications.

I have no interest in high-end guns and have generally only sold guns under 500 or so. I’ve gotten grief occasionally by clearly stating that I offer no inspection period and will accept no returns.

The reason is in this thread. Not being an FFL, here in Oregon accepting a return means I have to go through a full transfer, make arrangements to meet my FFL, do the fingerprinting, background check, and pay the fees again. Given that I live in a semi-rural area, that’s half a day of my life.

Not going to happen with such little money in play. I’m not Walmart. You but it, you own it. I’d obviously make an exception if there were a documentable defect I overlooked. A non-matching serial would only qualify if my auction had stated specifically “all matching serials”.

 

[nachogrande]

THE BARN DOOR HAS SHUT???

Good questions PRIOR to a purchase.

 

[A-37]

This actually should get discussed more often, because many people do not understand the implications.

I have no interest in high-end guns and have generally only sold guns under 500 or so. I’ve gotten grief occasionally by clearly stating that I offer no inspection period and will accept no returns.

The reason is in this thread. Not being an FFL, here in Oregon accepting a return means I have to go through a full transfer, make arrangements to meet my FFL, do the fingerprinting, background check, and pay the fees again. Given that I live in a semi-rural area, that’s half a day of my life.

Not going to happen with such little money in play. I’m not Walmart. You but it, you own it. I’d obviously make an exception if there were a documentable defect I overlooked. A non-matching serial would only qualify if my auction had stated specifically “all matching serials”.

An excellent reply. I might add that I would expect a seller to mention "non-matching SNs" if that were the case. No need to hide that fact from the buyer.

Looks like the answer to my OP is that the receiving FFL can't send the gun directly back to the seller. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[oneounceload]

Are you assuming correctly that the seller even knew if the gun was SUPPOSED to have matching serial numbers/ Sometimes I see things offered where the seller really has no clue what they have - we see that here and on other forums where someone unfamiliar with guns inherits somethings and is trying to find out more about it before they sell it.

If this isn't the case, and the seller refuses to help and you smell fraud, contact the auction site or sales site. If paid for with a credit card, contact them to see what they can do.

 

[jtcarm]

The FFLs are NOT owners. They are agents acting for the individuals involved.



Not an FFL.



Bekeart

Used to be an FFL

Even if Moe is just the “agent” the gun is in his inventory, and if Amos walks away and stiffs him, he has a strong claim to it. He has provided the service. Moe holds both an unclaimed item and unpaid invoice. So Amos’ first consideration is keeping him Moe happy, since he’s innocent and holds some good leverage. He’s liable to say “screw you, the guns mine now”. And even though he may be legally wrong, it will likely take Amos time and money to somehow pry it out of Moes hands. The end result would most likely be Amos paying Moe and taking the gun home.

Now assuming Moe is a really understanding guy who hasn’t jumped over the counter and strangled Amos, Amos had best get on the horn with Andy pronto and work out a deal that gets his money back, the gun back to Andy, Larry paid for the additional transfer, and Moe paid for TWO transactions since that’s what he would be providing.

Amos is probably smoking something funky if he believes Andy is going to fund all of that plus shipping.

The return does have to be shipped from and to an FFL. IDK if things have changed changed, but an unlicensed individual used to be able to ship handguns to an FFL via FedEx priority overnight. But price that & it costs like $50 to send a letter across the street. When I first sold online In the early 2000s (as a non-FFL) I could ship handguns for around $40, so I imagine FedEx was still allowing standard overnight back then.

Amos is over a barrel with zero leverage. Andy has his money and Moe has the gun. My advice to Amos is to complete the deal with Moe so he at least has the gun. Then negotiate with Andy about the return.

If Andy is a business or regular seller who cares about his reputation, he will offer some redress, but I doubt it will include all that Amos is demanding.

On the other hand, Andy may laugh, and I doubt there’s much Amos could do that wouldn’t involve paying legal fees, etc, that exceed the cost of the gun (even if all SNs had matched.).

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Before listening to all this rubbish on the forum, I would suggest that aggrieved person (him who is about ready to get hosed) seem counsel from my learned brother in the law Algonquin J Calhoun. Failing that I would rely on the sage advice given above from da Kingfish (Handejector).

 

[Jack Flash]

I have ... generally only sold guns under 500 or so. I’ve gotten grief occasionally by clearly stating that I offer no inspection period and will accept no returns.

The reason is in this thread. Not being an FFL, here in Oregon accepting a return means I have to go through a full transfer, make arrangements to meet my FFL, do the fingerprinting, background check, and pay the fees again. Given that I live in a semi-rural area, that’s half a day of my life.

Not going to happen with such little money in play. ....

I have not sold any guns via the internet, but if I did I think this would be my approach as well. In addition to the reasons above, what if the buyer disassembles the firearm and substitutes damaged, worn or inferior parts? And then comes up with some horse manure reason to send it back.

I doubt you could prove something like that, certainly not in a court of law. The buyer could always say, "That's the way I got it. One of the FFLs must have made the switch!" The only thing that's really recorded for sure is the serial number on the frame.

 

[oneounceload]

Moe holds both an unclaimed item and unpaid invoice

What unpaid invoice? The buyer paid the seller for the gun and shipping. Until the receiving FFL does the transfer, he has provided no service to have an unpaid invoice.

 

[Triathloncoach]

Our online gun buying/selling/trading game is all based on Faith. BTW, I am an atheist. That is why feedback is so important. I have several hundred documente online postive feedbacks. I tell the other guy that you aren’t going to be my first neg/neut.

You buy a $1,000 gun from someone who lives a plane flight away. He sends you nothing/junk. You are Sc****d. It will cost you far more in time and money to get justice.

Last week I sent a bunch (to me) of money to a stranger. Three days later a beautiful firearm appears at my FFL. The majority of people are honest. Sometimes crime pays, if you can look yourself in the mirror.

 

[bushmaster1313]

This is why it's sometimes hard to find an FFL to do a transfer.

^^^ That is correct

If the shipper is himself an FFL, the FFL to whom it was shipped can ship it back to the shipper because the shipper was required to include a signed copy of his FFL license when he shipped to the receiving FFL.

If the shipper was not an FFL the receiving FFL now has a gun which is not his and he can not ship it back. It is now a pain in the rear end. An exception is if the non-FFL shipper shipped it to the receiving FFL for repair, in that case, the receiving FFL can ship it back to the non-FFL shipper.

This is exactly why some local gun shops will not agree to take transfers from shippers who are not FFL's. Local FFL's are also sometimes loathe to receive guns from non-FFL's because non-FFL shippers often do not include adequate identifying information with the shipment, making it impossible for the receiving FFL to log in from whom he received the gun.

As to ownership, that is a question of contract law. The receiving FFL does not become an owner. He does, however, need to log the received gun into his bound book.

Last week I sent a bunch (to me) of money to a stranger. Three days later a beautiful firearm appears at my FFL.

That can certainly happen, and I myself have sent a $1,000 money order to someone I did not know from Adam and a very nice gun arrived at the local FFL. However, the time I bought my most expensive gun (a Winchester Model 21) it was from a brick and mortar gun shop with a stated return policy and payment was by credit card. My understanding is that the credit card companies will protect against outright fraud. Also, the brick and mortar store had a reputation to defend.

I wonder if the credit card agreement has a firearm disclaimer in the fine print.

 

[TomkinsSP]

I'm an FFL...
I would NOT be able to ship the gun back to Andy.
I would have to ship it to an FFL. How would I positively know it came from Andy? I logged it in from the FFL that shipped it.

Just to make things MORE confusing. IF Andy shipped a gun DIRECTLY to you (Recieving FFL) on his State ID (no origin FFL), could you as an FFL ship it back, or would it have to go to another FFL?

Thank you to Lee, or another licencee who would like to answer.