Reg Magnum/Non Reg/Pre-27 ?

[cmansguns]

I'm sure this question has been answered before, but I can't seem to locate a definitive answer.

As I understand it, Registered Magnums were basically in existence from 1935 to 1939. Then there are Non Registered Magnums from I believe 1938 to somewhere around 1941, with WWII production stopping the commercial magnum production and sales. Then 1948 "post-war" reintroduction starts and evidently goes up to 1957 with Model 27 introduction.

My question is simply what actual physical gun details (OTHER than production date) make a Non Registered Magnum different from a post war Magnum? Additionally, the term "pre Model 27" is Collector speak as I understand it...not "official" factory terminology...correct?

Below is my "post war"; "Pre Model 27" that shipped October 16, 1952 per LOA, 6-1/2", blue, high speed hammer, Magna stocks, s/n S 84926.

As I have posted before.....my gun is super sweet and I truly feel that it is the closest I'll ever come to a Reg Magnum (or even a Non-Reg Magnum) due to the pricing levels of those guns.

Apologize in advance if this subject has already been beat to death elsewhere, but the only difference I can conceive is the Victory inspired redesigned hammer block in 1944, which is I assume why the S pre-fix on the post war Magnums like mine.

 

[handejector]

As I understand it, Registered Magnums were basically in existence from 1935 to 1939. Then there are Non Registered Magnums from I believe 1938 to somewhere around 1941, with WWII production stopping the commercial magnum production and sales. Then 1948 "post-war" reintroduction starts and evidently goes up to 1957 with Model 27 introduction.


My question is simply what actual physical gun details (OTHER than production date) make a Non Registered Magnum different from a post war Magnum? Additionally, the term "pre Model 27" is Collector speak as I understand it...not "official" factory terminology...correct?

Your description above leaves out the most important difference between Pre-War and Post-War guns- the LONG action and the SHORT action.
Pre-War guns have a long action. Post-War guns have a short action. About 140 Post-War Transition guns were built with a long action. In 1949, the short action N frames began production.



Correct- "Pre-27" is collector speak and not Factory terminology.

 

[Doc44]

An obvious difference is the long action on .357 Magnums made post-WW II and prior to serial number S75000 (the first "modern" .357 Magnums like yours were shipped in late 1949). .357 Magnums without registration numbers have the old style front and rear sights, no hammer block, pre-war style stocks, and a long action.

Someone more knowledgeable will be able to describe other differences.

Bill

 

[handejector]

Bill,
The Pre-War guns have the pivoting hammer block. The Transition guns have the modern sliding hammer block.

 

[22hipower]

No argument with the comments above on differences between post war and registered and non-registered magnums. However there must have been at least a few non-registered magnums that were exactly the same as registered ones except for the lack of registration number. Maybe all were the same except for the lack of a registration number? I have non-registered magnum SN 60148, 6.5 inch blue, King reflector front sight and King white outline rear sight. Roy's letter says:

"This is a very interesting revolver that was produced at the end of the Registration Period. The shipping records list it as a non-registered magnum, yet on the enclosed invoice it lists a registration number 5422. This shipment was for three units the other serial numbers are 59937 Reg. No. 5420 and 60180 Reg. No. 5421."

I have a 3.5 inch pre-27 (SN S77886) and I have to agree those are great guns too.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[Doc44]

Lee...I agree, I just didn't state it clearly.

Bill

 

[handejector]

However there must have been at least a few non-registered magnums that were exactly the same as registered ones except for the lack of registration number.

Regs and Non-Regs are the same. The Non-Regs supposedly came with just a few standard barrel length options, but, as usual, S&W cashed the check when a special order came in, so we see a few Non-Regs with non-standard barrel lengths.

 

[lestert357]

Below is a list that was initially generated by RKmesa and then I added to it when I came to acquire serial number S71964 (now residing in RKmesa’s collection) which is one of the 142 Post-War .357 Magnum Transitional Revolvers. One thing that makes these guns so interesting is that they exhibit both Pre-War and Post-War characteristics, and to some extent these characteristics help to answer some of your questions:

Characteristics of the Post-War .357 Magnum Transitional Revolvers (the 142 Post-War .357 Magnums that were produced prior to the introduction of the Model 1950 Magnum Pre-Model 27)

1. Pre-War “long action” trigger system and hammer (standard or humpback) with concentric grooves on the sides of the hammer.
2. No “REG. U.S. PAT. OFF.” marking on the back of the hammer or trigger as found on the Pre-War Magnums.
3. Large ejector rod knob and corresponding cutout in the ejector rod shroud.
4. Pre-War frame (slightly longer in the grip portion of the frame) with exposed pins/studs (hammer and rebound spring) on the left side - on later models the pin/stud was machined flush with the side of the frame.
5. Usually a one line “MADE IN U.S.A.” on the right side of the frame.
6. Pre-War barrel with the rib normally cut flush with the end of the barrel, however on S71964 the rib was slightly recessed exactly like the Pre-War Magnums.
7. Post-War micrometer-click rear sight.
8. Fitted with Post-War Magna grips with Post-War medallions cut for the larger Pre-War grip frame (S71964 grips appear to be “pre-production” target grips with Post-War medallions).
9. Serial number is prefixed with an “S” (signifies the incorporation of the improved hammer block safety).
10. Shipped in either a Pre-War blue picture box or the Post-War gold box generally with the nickel plated SAT.

 

[SDH]

I'm in the same boat as the OP, not likely to ever acquire a pre-war .357. Near as I can tell the major visual difference is the front sight being slightly set back from the muzzle on Pre-war guns.
I surely like my Pre-27s; 5", 6" and 6 1/2" guns with the short action and muzzle-flush front sight. They reek of quality in fit, finish, action, lock-up and accuracy. I've often imagined what I could be missing in an earlier iteration? So far nobody has been able to tell me, nor is the answer here?

 

[Art Doc]

PS: The 1952 357 Magnum picture does not have the "High Speed Hammer." That was found on K frames.

 

[cmansguns]

Wow! The things you never knew!

Many thanks to the folks who answered my questions (and then some!).

This post is probably my best example of why I joined this Forum after some 4 years plus ago, after lurking and stumbling for 10 years trying to obtain info on select guns. My collection didn't ever approach serious until I watched various threads come alive with info not found in any other source, anywhere, any medium, anytime.

Many thanks to all, especially Art Doc who found my error listing a "high speed hammer" which is non existent on the Pre 27. That alone teaches me to stop being lazy, and make my gun write-ups (for my files and for insurance) from scratch for each and every gun. In this case I edited a previous writeup for a early post war K22, did mostly correct on the edits, but like Miracle Max says in Princess Bride... there is a difference between mostly correct and all correct. As for me getting the write-ups all correct in the future...Billy Crystal (Miracle Max) had that answer too: "It'll take a miracle!"

Anyway.........thank you all for the detailed information. All of my 3 Model 27's have been Lettered, and while Roy does a superb job of including history on the 357 Magnum, these details like above posts are the real meat of the knowledge you experts readily share for free.

One cannot beat this Forum for advice and consultation.

 

[Muley Gil]

"I've often imagined what I could be missing in an earlier iteration? So far nobody has been able to tell me, nor is the answer here?"


Many shooters prefer the pre WW II long action.

 

[rincar]

I have a 357 Magnum serial number S 757xx. It has been refinished at least once. There is light pitting on the side plate under the Re blue. It has a 3 1/2 inch Barrel. From what I can ascertain it is a 1950 gun. I have not lettered it as of yet. I picked the revolver up about 25 years ago for $275. It shoots great I have hit steel targets at 100 yards with it. It is my favorite revolver along with my 5 inch model 27-2.

 

[Nightowl]

It seems to me that the pre war .357 Magnums have a less tapered barrel that is somewhat larger in diameter than later model 27s. At least the ones that I have measured are that way.

Perhaps others have different observations. I don't have enough Registered Magnums to made a definitive statement.

 

[RKmesa]

I love the 8 3/8" (or 8.375") barreled .357 Magnums, and since I think photos do a nice job of showing some of the differences, here's a progression of the long barreled, pinned and recessed .357s through the engineering changes/number designations:

Pre-war 8.375" Registered Magnum (estimated 38 of them made in this barrel length). Ship date: May 1937

Pre-war Non Registered Magnum with a Humpback Hammer (I know of very few Non RM's in 8.375"). Ship date: February 1940

Post-War "Transitional" Long-Action 357 This one is has a barrel that measures 8 1/2" (8.5") and is the only 8.5" Transitional .357 that I know of. Terry owned this gun at one time and referred to it in post 8 above. Ship date: May 1948

Post-war 357 Magnum ("Pre-27"). Ship date: Nov. 1954

Model Marked 27 (no dash) with a set of early Keith Brown Thumb Rest Ropers. Ship date: November 1960

27-1 with a set of Cokes restored by Keith Brown. Ship date: March 1962

27-2 with a set of Kurac Smooth GA Targets. Ship date: October 1976

 

[Doug M.]

As much as I am not a fan of the real long barrels, that is a nice collection showing the progression of the variants through the years.

 

[MAB93]

I guess I've got a little something to contribute here. The image below shows just about the full extent of my S&W collection and I consider myself lucky to have it.

From the left is a Registered Magnum, 6.5 inch barrel, King Reflector sight with white outline rear blade (22hipower may be interested to know that it is REG. 5388 with serial number 60145 and originally lettered as a non-registered variation even though the letter mentioned that the shipping records listed Reg No 5388. Probably some interesting questions to be explored as to how S&W managed the transition from making Registered Magnums to Non-registered variations?). Middle is a true non-registered variation (ie no REGxxxx on the frame), 4 inch barrel, well used, as it came from one of the orders for the Kansas City police, shipped in 1940. On the right is a "Pre-27", 5 inch barrel.

People with a greater depth of experience than me have answered regarding the technical and visible variations between these handguns. I will just add that you can feel the difference between the long and short actions mentioned above.
I do use the Pre-27 a bit and like the smooth even double action trigger stroke, compared to other modern revolvers I've tried.
The non registered magnum which I also use a bit has a smoother and more manageable double action trigger stroke, and the single action trigger is remarkably crisp and precise, particularly when you consider this has been a police duty handgun for part of its life.
REG 5388, which I've only used sparingly, just makes me think "swiss watch" when I handle it in any way. Bringing the hammer to full cock, opening and closing the cylinder, firing in either double or single action just shows a remarkable attention to assembly, fitting and timing.

Certainly there's enjoyment to be had in collecting the technical and visible variations of these revolvers. But I've got to say there's a lot of enjoyment to be had in experiencing the build quality and workmanship that you'd be hard pressed to find anywhere else nowadays. Perhaps it is present in other S&W revolvers of a similar vintage to the Registered magnums. Someone else would have to answer that as I've run out of steam.

 

[mod57]

With regard to the pre-war long action vs. the post-war short, was S&W looking at manufacturing the short action prior to WW2? The short action was introduced very soon after the war and it seems like they must have been in the developement stages prior to that. What do we know, or not know about the reasoning for the change? Smith & Wesson's .357 Magnum, regardless of what monikers it has had is, to my eye, the finest example of a standard production gun. Is is industrial art and I do so love these threads that draw out the finest that S&W had to offer. While I adore these, I must confess that I do not own any as the cost of such is beyond my means. I do however really appreciate the shooter grade gun. The ones that have been cared for but were obviously used. I don't see too many of this type in the S&W .357 but maybe someday one will come along.
Ralph

 

[A10]

In regards to the photos, firearms, and knowledge shared in this post.....Wow! Thanks all!

 

[Wiregrassguy]

With regard to the pre-war long action vs. the post-war short, was S&W looking at manufacturing the short action prior to WW2? The short action was introduced very soon after the war and it seems like they must have been in the developement stages prior to that. What do we know, or not know about the reasoning for the change?
Ralph

Yes, S&W introduced the short throw hammer in 1940 and put it on the new K-22 Masterpiece, AKA the K-22/40. I believe that the King Sight Company had a short throw modification before S&W's came out. In addition, King designed the micro-click rear target sight. And, I believe S&W copied both designs. Someone with more knowledge of King's offerings will come along shortly and fix anything I have mis-stated.