Reloading Caution from a newb More info added

[Riccur]

Here is the situation:

I switched to TiteGroup to load my 38 Special Model 10 snub. Was formerly using IMR4227.

I decided to seat the bullet a little deeper but still within OAL numbers due the the decreased powder. The bullets (Speer 158 SJHP) were seated just below the crimp line and on the crimp line with the 4227 and I never had a problem with ignition.

I switched to the TG and seated covering the crimp line with my Lyman AA three die set. I noticed as with the 4227 that the edge of the brass when it reaches that line will actually crimp in to it even though I am not using a "crimp" die.

Here is where the problem began,

First shot with 3.6 grains TG shoots fine, second shot goes "pop" and of course I check the gun. Bullet is stuck in barrel about 1/4 inch from bottom of bullet to edge of barrel with powder packed in behind it.

I pound out the bullet and try another round with a little more charge, same deal, clear barrel try one more with a little more same thing. Well now I figure I will seat the bullet out of the crimp line and no more problems.

Any one have some experience with this powder/issue. Like I said the same crimp with the 4227 had no problems firing.

Observations made that may help some new reloaders, never speed fire your pistol until you have worked the load thoroughly, this could have been very bad.

Thanks,

Rick

 

[Riccur]

Here is the situation:

I switched to TiteGroup to load my 38 Special Model 10 snub. Was formerly using IMR4227.

I decided to seat the bullet a little deeper but still within OAL numbers due the the decreased powder. The bullets (Speer 158 SJHP) were seated just below the crimp line and on the crimp line with the 4227 and I never had a problem with ignition.

I switched to the TG and seated covering the crimp line with my Lyman AA three die set. I noticed as with the 4227 that the edge of the brass when it reaches that line will actually crimp in to it even though I am not using a "crimp" die.

Here is where the problem began,

First shot with 3.6 grains TG shoots fine, second shot goes "pop" and of course I check the gun. Bullet is stuck in barrel about 1/4 inch from bottom of bullet to edge of barrel with powder packed in behind it.

I pound out the bullet and try another round with a little more charge, same deal, clear barrel try one more with a little more same thing. Well now I figure I will seat the bullet out of the crimp line and no more problems.

Any one have some experience with this powder/issue. Like I said the same crimp with the 4227 had no problems firing.

Observations made that may help some new reloaders, never speed fire your pistol until you have worked the load thoroughly, this could have been very bad.

Thanks,

Rick

 

[Ignatz]

I'm not sure whats going on , but I'll throw some comments out there. First, If I'm reloading a bullet with a canalure or "crimp line"....I use that for the seating depth. Not deeper or shorter, I use what the bullet manufacture gives as the place to crimp the round. Second, 3.6 grs of Titegroup should send a bullet out of the barrel. It just seems that you did'nt have powder in it. I'm not familar with the powders you are using. Powders like Bullseye, Unique and 231 are standby powders for many older shooters out there.(like me)...Double and triple check your powder scale with calibration weights to see if everything is OK.

 

[OKFC05]

Like I said the same crimp with the 4227 had no problems firing.

Just because it didn't mess up before does not mean you were doing it right.

No offense, but suggest you go back and read the part of the manual about seating and crimping revolver cartridges. The sharp snap recoil of the fast powder is probably partially pulling your bullets, which is why the second shot messes up.
The seating and crimping technique described(or lack of it) is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Bruce51]

I'm not sure of your exact problem but you must crimp the case into the bullet groove or cannelure to achieve proper ignition. If you fail to properly crimp a bullet not only can you produce a squib load in that round you can also cause other bullets to pull loose and lock up the gun or misfire. Are you sure your dies do not crimp or are you not using the die correctly? You are trying to put this problem on the powder and I just don't see it that way. If it is a powder problem it would be because of a lack of powder. You need to review your reloading procedures. Also be sure that when you reload your cases that the primer hole is clear. Since you are new to reloading it is great that you are asking here for advice. I just hope that you take the advice seriously as you will get a lot of it.

Tell us more about how you reload as in single or progressive press. Also how you weigh and charge the powder. Post pictures of your reloads and until you get it right please keep asking questions. Bruce

 

[Dale53]

It is not a good idea to load ANY jacketed bullet at low velocity. Many manuals specifically state this as it can and will lead to a stuck bullet.

If you were using a cast or swaged SWC this is much less apt to happen.

However, the other posters that suggest that you should crimp properly are exactly correct. In addition, you need to have sufficient bullet pull to insure good ignition. Note that this is NOT normally a problem with powders as fast burning as Tite Group.

I suspect that you did not have sufficient crimp to keep the other rounds from suffering from the bullet moving forward increasing the case capacity in effect and causing a reduction in pressure with this light load that prevented the powder from igniting correctly.

Dale53

 

[Bruce51]

Dale 53 Makes a good point as well. I never use light loads for JHP's. Lead bullets are much easier and safer to drive with low powder charges. As you can see from the data taken from the Hodgdon website these are low pressure loads for a JHP. Bruce



158 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Titegroup .357" 1.455" 3.5 704 12,400 CUP 3.9 798 15,900 CUP

 

[Bullseye Smith]

I agree with Ignatz on what he said, TG is a good power to use. I use it for 38 and 45 loading. You need to get into the habit of checking each round after you load with a scale to check for no power or a double load of power. Takes about 5 mins extra time may save your life

.

 

[lafayne]

IMHO, it's a big jump in burning rate from 4227 to TiteGroup. Do you have any manuals?

 

[Steve C]

Bullet is stuck in barrel about 1/4 inch from bottom of bullet to edge of barrel with powder packed in behind it.

The only time I've had this happen was many years ago with a contaminated powder charge. Too much case lube using steel dies and the stamp pad type applicator. The powder was 2400 in a .357 mag.

3.6grs is a perfectly adequate .38 spl load that should deliver over 800fps from a 4" barrel.

 

[JD 500]

Short of you saying you saw powder behind the stuck bullet, I would have thought you fired a primed case without powder.

Titegroup, if I remember correctly, is said to not be case (position) sensitive. (Goes off even if charge only fills half the case.)
I would think that in this case (pun intended) if that load didn't ignite and you found the bullet just started into barrel, the powder is bad/contaminated/etc...

If you hadn't found powder after the shot, I'd say you had a primed but not (powder)charged case.

 

[Riccur]

Thanks for the input so far, however, maybe I am not making myself clear,

Crimping at the line is causing the stuck bullets, when not crimped they fire fine and accurate, no bullet movement due to the first shot they were all seated exactly the same way as when they went in, I went as high as 4.3 grains with just a little bit louder pop, the bullet went into the barrel the same distance. With a lot of unburned powder in the barrel behind the bullet, kind of a green tint to it.

I am loading single stage weighing each load exactly on a scale after dropping from a Lee powder measure. I do not trust the powder measure to throw the same load so I weigh them all and recheck the weights often two or three times.

Also using small pistol magnum primers due to a lack of regular pistol around here. That's why the loads are rather light to start, although they are not really light if you look at the load data on Hogdon.

Again, I have had zero problems with firing if I do not allow the brass into the canalure.

I will check primer pockets again but the ones I remember checking were open and clean, in nickel cases.

Now the lack of complete powder burn strikes me as strange as well. Any chance there is a problem with the powder? This has probably been at the store unopened for over a year.

There is no powder in the barrel or the chambers after a good shot.

As far as crimp goes seating die has a built in crimp. I can not move the bullet in or out or spin it in the case even if not seated to the canalure.

I am like a sponge on this stuff so keep the suggestions and words of wisdom coming.

 

[Bruce51]

There must be something you are not telling us. New powder in a sealed container should be ok. Not crimping leading to normal firing does not sound ok. I truly would like to help you but short of pictures or something else to go on you are having a very unusual problem. Bullets really must be crimped firmly to achieve proper pressure with smokeless powder. Does the powder look and smell ok. Acrid smell or reddish color would be bad. How full is the case when charged? There is something wrong and you need to find out what it is. Most of us do not have these problems with the type of reloading you have described. There is something missing here and if I have to go load it myself to figure it out I will. Pictures of everything would help. Email them to one of us if you have too. Is this your first time reloading? Ok what is next. Bruce

I'm still wondering about your powder charge. I would expect more than a pop from that load. How does your load compare recoil wise to a factory round. Is it rather wimpy. What scale are you using? Electronic or mechanical? Unburned greenish flakes indicate incomplete ignition of the powder. That means not enough powder and or insufficient crimp. Is there an experienced reloader near you to help you with this problem?

 

[pwelsh4hd]

Originally posted by Riccur:
Also using small pistol magnum primers due to a lack of regular pistol around here.

Though it really should not be causing the issues you report being exhibited here....I can't help but notice that these magnum primers are the odd duck in this pond. What kind are they?....and how old are they?

 

[Bruce51]

I think Rick needs some one on one with someone with reloading experience. He should not be having these problems. It sounds like his powder charge is incorrect. Not crimping is incorrect. Loads that go pop are suspect. Unburned powder in a correct load is just wrong. Magnum primers should work just fine. He is asking for help. He knows something is wrong. I give him credit for asking. Bruce

 

[epj]

I couldn't help but notice you stating that you are not using a "crimp" die. Does that mean you are crimping with the seating die, or not using a crimp die at all?
Nothing really wrong with not using a separate crimp die, but the bullets HAVE to be crimped for successful firing.

I suggest you sort of clear the table and start in fresh. Check each step in the reloading process, check your scales, and adjust your seating/crimp die to firmly crimp in the cannelure provided by the bullet manufacturer. You don't have to go overboard with the crimp, especially with a light load. Doing so will significantly reduce the useful life of your casings. As a check, place the bullet on a loaded round against your loading bench and press FIRMLY. If it doesn't move the bullet, the crimp is tight enough.

 

[Dale53]

Riccur;
I have been giving this some thought.

To really solve this, I have a couple of suggestions:

1 - Get another brick of primers. Go with
standard pistol primers. Get these from
a different source.
2 - Get another pound of Titegroup from a
different source.
3 - WEIGH up each charge (start with ten
charges in ten cases)
4 - Use only the new components

5 - Crimp in the groove provided - moderate
crimp is all tht is
6 - REALLY examine your cases to make sure
none are contaminated INSIDE

Now, shoot those ten loads and pay attention
to EXACTLY what happens. If that goes well, then load a box of fifty. If that goes well, you can introduce ONE COMPONENT at a time of your old powder and primers, doing exactly the same thing with those as you did with the new components. Eventually, you should find the problem and isolate it. Do NOT ignore the possibility that your cases may be contaminated inside with something (I have found all sorts of things inside cartridge cases, from spiders, to cleaning compound, to moisture - any of which could cause a problem).

Good luck. Just consider this a learning experience and DO NOT lose heart - THAT's an ORDER

.

Dale53

 

[Bruce51]

Dale 53. Very well stated. I hope he follows your well thought out advice. There is definitely something wrong in the mix. Bruce

 

[Riccur]

Dale, I hope you out rank me if you are going to be giving out orders.

Thanks for the advice guys, my problem with some of it is this, nothing has changed in the mix except for the powder. Everything works flawlessly with the IMR 4227 except for the unburnt powder issue.

So to that end and considering the fact that the crimp is done by the seating die and as long as I do not crimp in the canalure the powder works fine, and when not crimped in the canalure I can not move the bullet at all it is crimped enough.

I will try the following:

Check primer pockets,

Check inside cases for contamination (possibly unburnt 4227 ??)

Clean gun again (it was cleaned prior to using the TiteGroup)

Load and seat and crimp to canalure and try again.

I suspect I will then be pounding out the bullet again.

Also, I would point out once again the loads that work with this powder are accurate.

 

[m657]

Here's what Hodgdon site listed:

158 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon Titegroup .358" 1.475" 3.2 815 11,500 CUP 3.8 920 15,400 CUP
158 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Titegroup .357" 1.455" 3.5 704 12,400 CUP 3.9 798 15,900 CUP

I didn't find the exact SJHP you mention, however I have loaded virtually identical recipe on my own loads. Just yesterday I put over 400 downrange, most of which were 158 cast SWC or FRN versions. There was an old box of JHP with TiteGroup loaded at 3.8.

I had no problems as you have described.

Tite Group is mostly what I use these past few years in this general load range. Never any issues.

I have never seen unburned TG in any round I have fired.

Good luck in your search for the Truth.

And don't give up on TG, it's a wonderful powder, IMHO.