Reloading for Model 91 in 32 H&R or 32 MH Long

[Boulder350]

Here is a Model of 91 10" barrel chambered in the 32 H&R or 32 Merwin Hulbert Long cartridge. Looking to load some rounds for this unique cartridge.

I went the rounds originally trying to figure out what cartridge this barrel was chambered for. The 32 S&W Long was just a tad to long. The gun would close but took some force to do so. Found out that the 32 H&R cartridge came out in 1887 with an case length of about .890", a perfect fit for the barrel. Merwin and Hulbert also offered the same round and called it the 32 Merwin and Hulbert Long. Both rounds were designed for the larger 38 frame and cylinder, but were chambered for a 32 cal round.

I finally found an Ideal reloading tool #1 first variation from the late 1880' s with a de-priming pin in 32 H&R. What loads would you recommend for this round? I could go with a reduced black powder change and seat the bullet deep within the case like the 32-44 round. For the brass I bought some 32 H&R cases and trimmed them down to .890". Don't want to load to the 32 S&W long pressures in this old girl.

 

[Boulder350]

Here is a picture of the bullet mold cavity.

 

[BMur]

32 H&R/ Merwin Long

That’s awesome!
Notice your extremely rare Ideal Number 1 tool is the early tool made from 1884-1887? Having the primer feature on the nose?
This round was actually introduced in late 1884 for the large frame H&R 6 shot Top break revolver. Very rare tool!
Often listed as 1887 introduction? But I have a Distributor catalog that clearly lists the Model 1 hand ejector large frame H&R 6 shot H&R 32 long Caliber in 1885! This same basic round is identical in the 7 shot Merwin and Hulbert Target revolver. The Major Distributors often list it wrong as chambering the 32 S&W!

Notice the bullet is near identical to the S&W 32 first design? However it’s not the same bullet and the case is also different! I’ve also found that the original factory loaded bullets are hollow based. So this tool actually molds a heeled flat based bullet. Same difference can be found with the Schofield round. Ideal did not introduce a hollow base bullet into their line of tools until 1891.

Many errors are made by collectors and Distributors calling this a 32 S&W. It’s not!!

I would recommend black powder only! This round is rare and didn’t last long. Never saw the smokeless era and was replaced with the more common 32 S&W Long. This early black powder 32 Long is extremely obscure and difficult to research. It disappeared fast!

Murph

 

[Boulder350]

Thanks for the info Murph. Here is my 32 MH Long revolver that is made for this cartridge. Wish it had the longer 5 1/2" barrel too.

I have read the black powder should be compressed slightly when loading. Any thoughts on using a wad or two under the powder to lessen the black powder charge? Is some Puff-Lon better?

 

[BMur]

Loading?

That’s a nice one Mark!

I don’t see a problem with using a powder spacer. Just make sure you compress the powder firmly. No air gaps.

Mark,
That single shot target barrel? Is it actually stamped 32 H&R Long? If so can you please post a photo?

Murph

 

[Boulder350]

Wish the barrel was labeled either H&R or M&H but its labeled # 32 S&W CTG #. It is also machined fancy flat on the bottom so it would fit all 3 single shot frames. The top of the barrel has the 2 line address with Model of 91 in the center.

The first picture shows the cartridge stamping on the side of the barrel. Also attached a photo of an unloaded H&R case trimmed to .890". The last picture shows and factory loaded cartridge in 32 S&W Long. trimmed to .890" long.

I misspoke before, the spacer wads would go between the powder and the bullet. Hard to ignite the powder if the wad loaded first, below the powder.

 

[BMur]

Loading/ bbl

Sorry, I missed that. Just assumed you loaded the powder first.

So, are those H&R cases for the magnum? They must be.

I actually performed an in depth study of the early H&R’s, Iver Johnson’s and Merwin & Hulberts. I found ALL of the earliest models had grossly undersized bores that were designed for this early hollow based round.
I personally think that’s the reason you don’t see a lot of model 1’s. It’s due to them being shot with smokeless Smith & Wesson caliber cartridges.

Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

Question. Could this barrel be an "Olympic" chamber in .32 S&W Long? You stated: "The gun would close but took some force to do so." I'm very ignorant about 'Olympic' anything. Is your search just for a round that would fall into the chamber or what lead you to these obscure cartridges as opposed to the Olympic chamber?? Inquiring mind.

 

[Boulder350]

An Olympic chamber typically refers to the 22 long rifle cartridge. When you insert the 22 cartridge into the barrel with and Olympic chamber the bullet stops about 1/16" from fulling seating in the chamber. The reason it stops is because the lead bullet is touching the rifling. When you force the cartridge in that last 1/16" you force the lead bullet into the rifling.

When I put the 32 S&W long cartridge into this barrels chamber it stops because the brass case hits the the chamber step. The lead bullet does not touch the rifling. When I remove the cartridge from the chamber there are no rifling marks on the lead bullet. For this reason it is not an Olympic chamber for the 32 S&W Long cartridge

 

[Boulder350]

Murph - I did buy modern 32 H&R magnum cases and trimmed them down. It would have been less work to start with the 32 S&W long cases. Decided to start with a longer case so its much easier to tell the difference between the trimmed case and the original. Plus they already say H&R on the brass which is more correct.

 

[BC38]

I never even knew there was a 32 H&R other than the 32 H&R Magnum.
I learn something new here almost every day...

 

[John in AK]

I'm confused. . . why are you trying to shove .32 S&W Long cases into a barrel marked '.32 S&W'?

They aren't the same. .32 S&W is a short little varmint, .61" case, with an 85gr bullet, designed for the 1 1/2 Single Action, .32 DA, and .32 New Departure. .32 S&W LONG has a .92" case, and a 95gr bullet, and was introduced for the Model of 1896 revolver.
Now, in a single-shot, it's OAL that matters: If you load a case 'just so' with the bullet just touching the rifling, that's the 'right' length--IF excessive pressure doesn't result. Using the intended cartridge, .32 S&W, seems like the safest thing to do. Its OAL with the 85gr bullet should give the appropriate amount of leade that will keep pressure down. Revolvers are different; If the case seats, and the bullet doesn't stick out of the front, you're Golden--taking pressure into account, of course.

As to .32 H&R, or .32 M-H, or .32 Forehand & Wadsworth, all of these critters are 'badge-engineered' .32 S&W or .32 S&W Long (read .32 Colt or .32 Colt New Police)--the same cartridges, more or less, perhaps changed slightly so as not to be slavish copies, or perhaps just being marked as proprietary by the major manufacturer asked to make them so as not to give free advertising to the competition. Think 'Sears Roebuck' or 'Montgomery Wards' cartridges--made by major factories, boxed and stamped as proprietary for sales purposes. .32 S&W is a very simple, very easy cartridge to replicate, and many did.

There are some 'ringers,' such as S&W .32-44 Target, which is completely different AND far too long to chamber in anything other than a NM3. There are also '.32 Long' cartridges intended for lightweight target rifles, and they've been around since the late 1860s.

 

[Boulder350]

I collect Model of 91 barrels. If I remember right in the 80's the factory liquidated their stock of these barrels they had in inventory. Some were complete, some where finished and not assembled, and some were unfinished.

A few of those barrels we chambered in odd cartridges. I have seen pictures of a 38-44 chambered Model of 91 barrel posted here by a member. I have heard of other collectors having unique chamberings for their Model of 91 barrels too.

The barrel in the original post is one of those uniquely chambered barrels. I bought it already blued but in parts.

A 32 S&W short could be fired in this gun. The bullet would have to jump the gap of .610 (the length of the 32 Short case) to .890 (the length of this barrels chamber). It would not be very accurate for a target pistol.

 

[mmaher94087]

"..because the brass case hits the the chamber step." Thank you, Mark. Makes sense to me now.

 

[rct269]

"Don't want to load to the 32 S&W long pressures in this old girl."

Well, I don't know the first thing about .32 S&W Long pressures, but I know this barrel (and others like it) were used with varying size holes in them to shoot .22 Long Rifle, and .38 S&W along with whatever .32 caliber cartridge it was----while mounted on a frame made to shoot .38 S&W cartridges.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-------seems like the 38 S&W pressures are the yard stick you probably should be thinking about (and I don't know anything about those either----'cept they're bigger----and shoot heavier bullets----for whatever that might have to do with pressures).

Ralph Tremaine

 

[BMur]

The crazy Black powder Era

I think Mark is taking the correct and safe approach by “ matching cartridge to existing chamber” and “bullet to bore“!

It’s too bad 99% of collectors don’t bother following this safe procedure! It’s always the same story. “ Just use a light smokeless load”! That’s what gets you into trouble! Smokeless is only safe when ALL the dynamics match! You get one wrong and the resulting pressure spike from your “ Light smokeless load” will damage the antique!

Add to the fact that many thousands of antiques actually chambered these odd, obscure, calibers and you’re bound to damage the antique using the “ Wrong” cartridge!

The simple procedure is to “ Match cartridge to chamber” and bullet to bore! That is how you conform to the black powder ERA without tossing your antique into the scrap heap from your own gross error!

Murph

 

[Jim Watson]

This just boggles my mind. If you are going to rechamber a .32 SW why not .32 SW Long and why for a round from a competitor?
Done before the SW L came out?

 

[Boulder350]

As early as 1887 Merwin and Hulbert came out with a target revolver chambered in the 32 M&H Long (same dimensions as the 32 H&R). That's 9 years before the 32 S&W long came out. Murph actually posted an advertisement from that time in post #3 above showing the target revolver. It was meant to compete with the NM3 target revolver chambered in 32-44.

 

[Boulder350]

" SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-------seems like the 38 S&W pressures are the yard stick you probably should be thinking about "

Good point Ralph. I looked up the max pressures on line. Don't know if they are right but they are listed at:

32 S&W Short 12,000 psi
38 S&W 14,500 psi
32 S&W Long 15,000 psi

If I seat the bullets a little deeper in the case and with the shorter case itself I should be fine. Want to avoid putting the wad under the bullet if possible. No crimp should be needed since its a single shot.

 

[glowe]

OK, I am one of those that has a one-of-a-kind chambering of a Model of 1891. Years ago, I bought an in-the-white 10" barrel that was sold off with boxes full of left-over factory barrels in the early 1970s. This one had a very long chamber, with no indication that it was bored out. It was a 38 S&W caliber barrel without any caliber stamp and no serial number, so that best scenario was that it was "played" with at the factory, and it was never finished or altered after leaving the factory. As it turned out, the chamber length was the exact dimension of a 38-44 Target brass. It makes me wonder if your chamber could be a 32-44? I believe the length of that brass was just under 1". Ralph stated the dimensions of a 32-44 Target and Gallery cartridge.

The dimensions of the 32-44 cartridge are as follows:
Case diameter: .346"
Overall case length: .974"
Rim Thickness: .056"
Overall Length: 1.021" (Regular load---Gallery load has bullet seated deep within the case.)
Ralph Tremaine

My opinion is that your barrel may have been altered post-factory due to the 32 S&W stamping already being applied. I might have missed it, but is there a serial number on the barrel? If not, maybe one of those factory left-overs as well.

The principle of the 32-44 and 38-44 was to fill the chamber completely with brass right up to the rifling. That allows eliminated bullet jump. I would look to see if you could find brass that could be fashioned that way. It is then possible to load any amount of black powder you want and seat the bullet fully against the powder. As Ralph noted, the 32-44 Target gallery bullet was seated deeply into the case and obviously pushed into the powder.

Lastly, do not use Puflon and black powder. Puflon is highly compressible and cannot be loaded to assure full compression of the BP. While it does away with air space, there is no way to assure a 1/16" compression of the powder so you can get erratic velocities and maybe some bullets stuck in the barrel.