Resetting Elevator Trim on Touch & Go

[Hair Trigger]

Recently there have been a couple threads on aircraft accidents that got me thinking about student pilots in light airplanes. Check lists are written in blood, but a common training maneuver, the Touch and Go, happens so quickly that check list items are done from memory. Probably the most important item is setting elevator trim from a landing setting to a take off setting. This is what happens when the trim is not reset.

Check lists exist so items don't have to be done from memory. Any instructor who allows a student to do procedures without his checklist out and open is a poor instructor and doing a disservice to the student. I understand that after years of doing procedures, they tend to become automatic, but in times of crisis or when distracted, the most important item seems to fly out the window of your memory. Something like shooting touch-and-goes don't happen so quickly, you know you're going to do one before it happens and you prepare for it, just as you would for a landing or takeoff.

If I didn't have my checklist out and open to the proper list during a check ride, it was an automatic bust, even if I was doing the correct thing at the correct time or sequence. And I wasn't even flying the plane (USAF Flight Nurse). The only thing more important during a flight was having our walkaround bottle full (oxygen).

My son-in-law is now working on his CFII rating, after having finished his PPL, instrument, commercial and CFI ratings. His instructors all required him to have the appropriate checklist on his knee board for whatever procedure he was getting ready to perform, as have the examiners during his check rides.

 

[CQB27]

While flying Army RC-12 (King Air 300s and 300s upgraded with 350 P&W engines)

Enter downwind, at midfield props to max, slow airspeed to Vref plus 30 knts, trim as necessary

Turn to base, reduce power to begin controlled descent, flaps to "approach", pitch to Vref plus 20 knts, trim as necessary

Turn to final, reduce airspeed to Vref plus 10 knts, trim as necessary

Landing assured, flaps full maintain Vref plus 10 knts.

Runway threshold, minor power/pitch adjustment, slowing to Vref at touchdown on the 1000 ft marker.

Trim adjustments were made throughout the descent to maintain airspeed/glide path until "landing assured". Some then chose to make trim adjustments at the "flaps full" setting, which neutralized the yoke during final descent and required positive rear yoke input at round out till touchdown. Others made no trim adjustment at "flaps full", which required positive forward input on the yoke to maintain airspeed/descent profile until round out, then a relaxing of the forward input at round out and a very slight rear input at touchdown. I preferred the latter because it was less work to reconfigure the flight control trim in the event of a go abound.

In the event of "go around/touch and go", power to max/flaps to take off (same as approach setting), V1-rotate, positive rate of climb, gear up, flaps up, set best climb speed, trim as necessary.

In Army fixed wing in the 90s the C-12/RC-12/OV-1 all had the same Vref approach profile, Plus 30 knts on downwind, plus 20 knts on base, plus 10 knts on final, slowing to Vref at touchdown. The Gulfstream boys may have flown a different profile (I don't know because I never got to fly those ), but I was always told every fixed wing AC followed that profile, including them. The OV-1 has manual trim only, the C-12 had manual/electric trim. The UH-1H had "force trim", but that's another subject for another time, lol.

 

[Lee in Quartzsite]

Excuse me if I brag just a little about my wife. We both went to flight school together in 1986. Bought a Cessna 152II and both of us learned to fly in it. Here is her big day...Solo flight. Got the plane back in one piece!

 

[Absalom]

As a side note and personal observation:

Touch-and-gos have little instructional value other than cramming as many patterns and landings into expensive dual time as possible. Whenever traffic permitted, I was encouraged to do stop-and-gos. Fortunately, we had several airports including our home field at our disposal that combined long runways with light traffic, so that was often the case. Learning to plan your landing so you stop where you intend or need to, and starting a take-off from scratch after checking that the plane is properly configured, teaches much more than fumbling through a maneuver that, once you fly for real, you'll rarely need.

 

[Jessie]

I disagree with you on that Absalom. It crams the most flying time into practicing the most critical parts of flight, take offs and landings. It's a training regime and not really meant to be used in normal flying.
If you stop and go, that Hobbs meter continues to run while you're stopped and taxiing, learning nothing.

 

[alwslate]

Touch-and-goes are useful in training mostly to practice flying the pattern and learning to deal with wind and avoid flying the "coat hanger" approach. Once you have your license and your own plane that you're very familiar with you'll probably never do another touch-and-go.

 

[Absalom]

If you stop and go, that Hobbs meter continues to run while you're stopped and taxiing, learning nothing.

Not sure you mean the same thing as I, since a stop-and-go involves no taxiing. Your instructor says "Be stopped by the entrance to taxiway Charlie", you manage that or don't. Then you look at the appropriate checklist, reconfigure, and roll again, never leaving the runway.

I actually don't think it adds that much time. You do have to ask for it at a towered airport and get cleared. At the low-intensity class D fields where I practiced, controllers never refused; obviously, you don't if radio traffic indicates several planes lining up for landing.

 

[Jessie]

I see what you're saying but it was instilled in me in a short time that runway behind you is wasted runway. I USED to do intersection takeoffs but trained myself not to after a while.

 

[Sistema1927]

Speaking of stop and go's, I had the privilege of being the first pilot to fly a newly published ILS approach at KABQ. I was working on my instrument rating, and had just received my new Jep plates. I told my instructor about it, and we departed KAEG and asked for that approach at KABQ. The controller responded, "Is that approach published yet?" and I told them that I had the plate on my leg board. They gave me clearance, and I flew it down to a full stop. Tower asked what I wanted to do, and since it was a no wind day and that wasn't the active runway for jet traffic I just asked for permission to take off on the reciprocal. It was granted, I did a 180 on the runway, and took off for some more practice under the hood.

 

[washerman]

Trimming the elevator pressure out is very important when going around for another landing after a touchn go or a botched landing. Cessna aircraft have very large effective "barn" flaps and the change the pitch pressure significantly. If you have full flaps hanging out there and try to take off again then you better ease off to the second notch after applying the power and get that trim changed. Electric trim is easier than a wheel between the seats or the crank on the piper ceiling. Pilot does not have to remove one hand from other duties. Sure you can push the yoke hard against the out of trim pressure but that is poor pilot technique and potentially deadly. When you initiate a go around, you better hit full power, carb heat off (if no fuel injection) and get that nose pushed down before you end up in an accelerated stall.

 

[WuzzFuzz]

I will say this about touch and goes, I never did do a check ride that we did touch and goes. A pilot is taught, or should be taught to use his check list before take off, and after he has exited the runway to use a after landing check list...

That may add about ten minutes total to the whole check ride per say.

But after each of the demonstrated take offs, each of the demonstrated landings will always be to a demonstrated stop, and taxi back for the next type of take off, and the next type of demonstrated landing...

Because of the touch and go and trying to do memory items, that is the fasted way for a person to forget a critical item...

More than one person has raised the landing gear after landing, instead of the flaps. The flaps are to be raised after exiting the runway and are safely stopped on the taxiway..because they were used to doing the raise the flaps and gear for the next go around

A airliner can do multiple things because there are two in the cockpit, one calling out, required items, such as flaps set, trim set, then as the captain calls out "set power". and so forth...

Touch and goes might add to the take off and landings, but only full stop landings count for the log book entry.

FAA examiner retired as well as...


WuzzFuzz

 

[Lee in Quartzsite]

Very well said. The closest I came to having an accident soon after I soloed was during a touch and go. After that I always taxied back, check list in hand.

 

[llowry61]

I see what you're saying but it was instilled in me in a short time that runway behind you is wasted runway. I USED to do intersection takeoffs but trained myself not to after a while.

Funny that you mention that, I trained at Rickenabacker AFB which had dual runways that were close to 12k feet long.

They had a cable at 3k feet that they used to train carrier landings back in the day.

For a long time it was SOP for the flight school students to back taxi to the cable then take off from there. I was doing a pre check ride with a new instructor and requested the back taxi, which was cleared by the tower controller.

The new instructor asked me why on earth I would do that. I told him the hobs was running and myself and other students didn't want to waste money driving around an airfield.

He asked me how I would feel dumping the aircraft in a field with 9k feet of runway behind me.

I never thought about it, but he had a point. I stopped doing it after that and spent the 5 minutes to taxi to the approach end of the runway.

A true story by the way - my wife and I were landing at RIK after the 100 dollar hamburger and the controller cleared me to land. His next transmission was for Blue Angle flight leader to hold in position. I moseyed on down and landed while the Blue Angels held - it was awesome to watch them smoke outta there once I hit the taxi way. I have to admit I hit the throttle and lifted the nose off the ground in salute to them. The controller advised cherokee 626 to slow it down.

You never knew what you were going to get flyin in and out of there. Wake turbulance scared me to death.

 

[Absalom]

Stop-and-gos are especially useful for developing good habits if your home field where you learn and practice most has long and wide runways that give you all the space in the world.

I've watched many casual pilots get sloppy about the touchdown point if they are used to a runway where any touchdown in the first two-thirds leaves you plenty remaining to roll out. If you're used to 150' by 5000' plus, and then have to put it into a 40' by 1500' field, things can get interesting quickly.

Having learned to manage your landings by some reference to where you want to be done helps greatly. Obviously, checking the chart or whatever electronic gizmo replaces those nowadays to ensure the runway is long enough to take off again with a safety margin is part of good practices.

 

[Retired W4]

Interesting discussion. Gun show this weekend kept me from reading until now. BTW, the Piper engineer who examined the wreckage said that with the trim setting at impact it would take over 40 pounds of force to keep the airplane on the ground prior to rotation speed.

 

[Exaviator]

On a Boeing 747 Classic it goes like this:
PF Maintains aircraft on R/W center line with rudder, one hand still on power levers in idle position. (No reverse thrust selected) the other on the control yoke.

PNF Selects flaps 10 and announces, "Stand them Up"
PF Advances power levers to vertical position, backed up by FE. This allows engines to spool up and stabilize.

PNF Trims stab-trim to Take/Off position then calls, "Go"
PF Advances power to Take/Off setting, backed up by FE.
PNF At Vref+10 calls, "Rotate"

PF Rotates and continues the Take/Off.


Notes: PF=Pilot flying. PNF=Check/Training Captain, not flying. FE=Flight Engineer. Vref+10 Flaps40, is equivalent to Vr Flaps10 at training aircraft weights.

 

[WuzzFuzz]

Exaviator, You and your crew would probably passed a check ride had I been the one sitting in the jump seat...

My last year and a half was sitting on the door (jumpseat) observing just what you described doing flight checks.

Not always, but sitting on the door one way, and getting to sit in the back and observe the attendants on the return home, or maybe on another airline if there was going to be a long overlay with the first airline before the return back to my home office.

Something like,1 to Atlanta, 2. to Detroit, 3. to maybe Chicago, or out to Salt Lake, then 4. to home, if it all worked out right in the same day.

Two in one day was enough, but many times it was, run to the next aircarrier, then jump a ride back home.

But probably like you, I sure did get tired of living out of a suit case.!!!!

The attendants seemed to be the worse ones for keeping their manuals updated.

Now it seems like Long, Long ago, and a Far, Far away place.

Health wise now, keeps me from keeping the greasy side down.!!!!


WuzzFuzz

 

[Exaviator]

"Exaviator, You and your crew would probably passed a check ride had I been the one sitting in the jump seat.."

Thanks WuzzFuzz, I spent 40 years in aviation, 16 of which were as a Check & Training Captain on the Boeing 747, so did more than a few touch & go circuits.

 

[Retired W4]

"Exaviator, You and your crew would probably passed a check ride had I been the one sitting in the jump seat.."

Thanks WuzzFuzz, I spent 40 years in aviation, 16 of which were as a Check & Training Captain on the Boeing 747, so did more than a few touch & go circuits.

One question. Isn't V ref and V ref+10 used in landing and not take off? Maybe I'm just confused, or maybe it's just a Seven Four thing.

 

[Jessie]

It was in the 727.
TO was airspeed -V1- Vr/rotate-V2 and V2+10

 

[Exaviator]

W4, remember this thread is about doing touch & go circuits. The aircraft is configured for landing with ASI bugs set accordingly (Vref for Flaps 40) The aircraft is not brought to a full stop and reconfigured.
Everything happens on the roll and no time to change ASI bug settings, just select the flaps, trim the stabilizer, and apply power.


If it was a normal Take/Off the ASI bug setting would be set for V1, Vr, & V2 and the fourth bug to V2+100kts.


Hope that makes things clearer.

 

[WuzzFuzz]

Also, remember Exaviator has/had a TWO man crew, plus one.


WuzzFuzz

 

[Absalom]

Also, remember Exaviator has/had a TWO man crew, plus one.

As we used to say, the two-plus crews don't fly planes, they fly procedures

 

[Sistema1927]

As we used to say, the two-plus crews don't fly planes, they fly procedures

Even at that, I am of the opinion that it should be a requirement that every one with an FAA license be required to read "Stick and Rudder' annually.

 

[Retired W4]

W4, remember this thread is about doing touch & go circuits. The aircraft is configured for landing with ASI bugs set accordingly (Vref for Flaps 40) The aircraft is not brought to a full stop and reconfigured.
Everything happens on the roll and no time to change ASI bug settings, just select the flaps, trim the stabilizer, and apply power.


If it was a normal Take/Off the ASI bug setting would be set for V1, Vr, & V2 and the fourth bug to V2+100kts.


Hope that makes things clearer.

Actually the original post was about some dead guy who, before the crash, had his elevator trim set to the point that he was unable to keep the aircraft on the ground long enough to reach flying speed. The thread evolved into a broad spectrum discussion of procedures, which I have thoroughly enjoyed, as it has been 13 years since I retired from flying. I also enjoy talking flying with my son who fly's 767's and A-10's, not that I know much about either airframe.

The broader point is pay attention to details and STAY SAFE, especially when participating in complex activities. Thanks anyway for the over due refresher course.