reversed HBWCs as defensive ammo

[Cariboo Canuck]

The only civilian I know who has shot and killed an assailant used a .45 '17 S&W with reversed HBWCs.

He was the proprietor of a gun shop/gun smith operation. A guy out on parole came into the shop and started asking questions about guns, calibres and ammo.
My buddy accommodated him, making the mistake of leaving a 1911 and a loaded magazine on the counter while he looked for something else the guy wanted to see. The creep robbed him at gun point with the 1911!

My buddy didn't resist, as his wife was in the apartment on the 2nd floor. After using duct tape to immobilize his hands, the guy took the cash from the register and kicked him in the head as a parting gift after putting the cash, a couple of guns and ammo into a box.

This enraged my buddy to the point where he broke the tape, grabbed the '17 and went after the creep. The creep's girl friend was in the car with the doors locked!
The creep put the box on the roof of the car and fumbled in his pocket for the keys. My buddy put the drop on him, ordering him to surrender, but the creep fired at him, hitting with him two body hits of FMJ .45 ACP ammo.

Before he fell, he fired several times at the creep with the '17, hitting him fatally. He then turned and fell into the arms of his wife gouting blood. It took several operations and psych counselling to get him well.

The Point - reversed HBWCs did the job very well.

I suspect that reversed .38 Spl. HBWCs would have done the job just as well. I've tried them in my 4" M66 on water filled milk jugs and it was impressive.

 

[poordevil]

I like them. When folks complain that they may tumble, which I doubt, the bad guy is hit with a projectile almost an inch wide. That should raise a welt.

 

[Engineer1911]

Anything travelling at ballistic velocity inside 15 feet to the target, delivers the message that the target has made a mistake.

 

[Vulcan Bob]

I'm not sure if any ammo company's factory load em or not. Hand loaded defensive ammo may be a potential legal problem for some folks. If you do, don't run em over 850fps that seems to be the the "sweet spot" for the 148 LHBWC. Below 850fps they do not open to their full potential, over 850fps the "skirt" starts to blow off the bullet.

 

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

....and a .22 Short or a .25 ACP could have stopped the perp just as well, but you're not going to find a lot of people saying its a good idea to carry pistols in those calibers.

If reverse HBWC ammo was such a great SD load, EVERY major ammo company would be making such ammo (and they don't).

 

[Pisgah]

I don't doubt a .45 HBWC would do the job, whether it was reversed or not. But I really think that if this old, old idea were all that great the ammo companies would be keeping us well-supplied in reversed-HBWC loads. Plenty of testing of this idea thru the decades has shown there are better ways.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Mostly, a "righteous shooting" will overcome any difficulty or choice of ammo or gun. I don't think it is necessary to make it complicated.

The good guy was lucky to survive his mistakes. I'm happy for him.

 

[GyMac]

I've tested reverse HBWC's in .38 special and they were impressive at short range, but I've heard they don't do well accuracy-wise at longer ranges. Maybe they would have had some value in the past when bullet technology was not so advanced.

 

[Rpg]

The first load from Hydra Shock was, in effect, a hb swaged lead wc with a post in the middle. I still have a couple boxes.

Pretty impressive on water jugs.

 

[T2C]

Where was the suspect hit with the reversed HBWC?

 

[Ptarmigan]

Where was the suspect hit with the reversed HBWC?

My guess is Canada

 

[rwsmith]

Why doesn't somebody TEST......

Why doesn't somebody TEST this load. I keep hearing about it's effectiveness but have never seen data or pictures.

I would guess that a HPSWC would do a good job. I think i'd enlarge the hole a bit to emulate the 'flying ashtray' idea.

As of now I have 135 gr Speer short barrel Gold Dots in my snubs. i have them loaded for 850 fps but i can get them up to 950 if I want to take the pain. My wife is better off with the milder load, too.

 

[poordevil]

decades has shown there are better ways. (More expensive) ammo companies make the wiz bang stuff to make money......

 

[poordevil]

Why doesn't somebody TEST this load. I keep hearing about it's effectiveness but have never seen data or pictures.

I would guess that a HPSWC would do a good job. I think i'd enlarge the hole a bit to emulate the 'flying ashtray' idea.

As of now I have 135 gr Speer short barrel Gold Dots in my snubs. i have them loaded for 850 fps but i can get them up to 950 if I want to take the pain. My wife is better off with the milder load, too.

I am approaching the geezer stage of life. A writer for guns and ammo in about 1980-82 (Rick Jamison ) did tests with a M-64 with the skinny BBL. And if I remember right, they did very well. Also a friend in High School (1970's) made some up and they were a curse on rabbits.

 

[T2C]

If reversed HBWC was an effective defensive cartridge, ammunition companies would be selling tons of it at a premium.

 

[oldman10mm]

Back in the 70s'/80s' I tested them in handloads.

Fired into a 5 gal bucket of sand,38cal mushroomed to an inch.

 

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

Back in the 70s'/80s' I tested them in handloads.



Fired into a 5 gal bucket of sand,38cal mushroomed to an inch.

Good to know when attacked by a bucket of sand.

 

[T2C]

Why doesn't somebody TEST this load. I keep hearing about it's effectiveness but have never seen data or pictures.

I would guess that a HPSWC would do a good job. I think i'd enlarge the hole a bit to emulate the 'flying ashtray' idea.

As of now I have 135 gr Speer short barrel Gold Dots in my snubs. i have them loaded for 850 fps but i can get them up to 950 if I want to take the pain. My wife is better off with the milder load, too.

Factory Speer 135g +P GDHP chronographs at 872 fps at the muzzle out of my BG38 and that is what I carry.

 

[Cariboo Canuck]

Like Cooper said -

"Problem one is survival. Problem two can be dealt with in court."

In other words, better tried by 12 than carried by six.

Ammo companies likely don't offer reversed HBWCs for Fear of the old "Dum Dum" bullet issue, not because they don't work.

And we're talking close and dirty defensive shooting, not long range. A round that expends it's energy in the target would seem to be well suited for the purpose.

In the case I mentioned above, the exchange took place over the rear end of a full sized car. If I recall, the deceased was hit three times in the torso area.

The shooter was one of our early pioneers in the days before IPSC. It was still "Combat Pistol Shooting", Jeff cooper was the High Priest and the .45 ACP was King.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Handguns magazine in 11/11/2012, did a test on factory ammo
in a 2" snub nose and one was a Hornady 148gr HBWC bullet
with 3.5 grs of Titegroup that averaged 780 fps.

The writer was very disappointed in his "Custom Load" that
should have worked, loaded backwards with the HB in front.

In the gel test, penetration was below FBI specs at only 10".
With cloth, the HP plugged up and penetrated 19" with no expansion.

There were several loads that did pass inspection, though.