BigMuddy
Member
And yet Paco Kelly wrote of killing a black bear with one! (yeah let's turn this into a "bear" thread 
)
Dan
)Dan
reversed HBWCs as defensive ammo
- Thread starter Cariboo Canuck
- Start date
Here's two from long ago,70s'/80s' ? I was given them by a coin shop proprietor back then. Was only given two and put them aside. Headstamp is HYDRA-SHOK. Don't know the manufacturer. Not to be confused with the current Federal Hydra-Shok,but maybe they were Federals' early/initial version.
I have a box left I loaded for 38 spec. 20 plus years old. Tempted to pull the bullets and reload. Fired a couple into wet phone books years ago and they expanded to .70 plus. Don't remember for sure but I think I just used Unique just a little over target loading.
ggibson511960
Member
Mean Load
I was once pestered by armadillos crawling around my blind in my goose hunting spreads, so I carried a 2 in. Charter Arms Undercover .38 with HBWC's loaded upside down to ward off the beasts. Dillos have a hard shell hide like a pair of heavy boots, but the HBWC's would always punch through both sides and dispatch the dillo in short order, albeit at close range. Entry wound was a sharp, round hole, as if by a cookie cutter. Exit wound was pretty nasty. The 6 or 8 in. of intervening dillo was a mess, and the dillo never knew what happened. There's not a lot of shock in a target speed HBWC, but all those sharp edges cause trouble on the way through.
I was once pestered by armadillos crawling around my blind in my goose hunting spreads, so I carried a 2 in. Charter Arms Undercover .38 with HBWC's loaded upside down to ward off the beasts. Dillos have a hard shell hide like a pair of heavy boots, but the HBWC's would always punch through both sides and dispatch the dillo in short order, albeit at close range. Entry wound was a sharp, round hole, as if by a cookie cutter. Exit wound was pretty nasty. The 6 or 8 in. of intervening dillo was a mess, and the dillo never knew what happened. There's not a lot of shock in a target speed HBWC, but all those sharp edges cause trouble on the way through.
SuperMan
Member
Once upon a time I was a commercial ammo manufacturer catering mainly to LEOs and PDs...one of the loads that I made was using the Hydra-Shok Corp. bullets {that were swaged by Alberts Bullet Company}. One of the most popular loads was a the 148 HS-HP. I loaded it with enough SR4756 to mke it run 950 fps from a 2" snubbie...run at that velocity it became a whole different animal...
The factory load was VERY mild...like 670 fps from a snubbie. I remember reading an article where the writer shot a groundhog with one...it ran back into the hole and a minute later came back with blood running down it's neck. It was then killed by a head shot. The "problem" was at the velocities loaded, even from a 4" gun, the bullet would make this great mushroom with the HS post sticking out the top... However if the bullet was run over 900 fps the bullet would violently expand blowing off the HP and the rest of the bullet, which looked a little like a Hersey's Kiss kept right on a truckin'. I shot a row of one quart paper oil cans...the first can blew into pieces, the second can was split wide open and the base of the bullet went through 6 more cans. A standard HP would usually end up in can 3-4.
This is the recovered bullet from that test back about 1982...
This a MeHic 190 grain .41 HBWC {also available in .357/.44/.45} that was run through a 8# Unique jug full of water. The pieces were found in the jug and the base went through the back and was recovered on the snow behind the jug. It split open the carton and blew the cap off...
Matt's Bullets used to sell these but he stopped probably because they are very difficult to cast...
Second test using a row of plastic one gallon milk jugs with a paper carton up front...
Blew the carton apart with lead fragments left behind in the carton...the base went through several more jugs.
The problem is that people who load these bullets think that because they have these big holes in the end that velocity isn't needed to make them "work"...wrong...run them hot enough to tear the nose off and you will not only get a great shock but also penetration...
Federal is sitting on a gold mine in that little 148 HS-WC but they are to busy making their rounds into mushrooms instead of effective defensive ammo....
Bob
ps..Hydra-Shok sold out to Federal...the whole story is in one of Marshall & Sanow books...
The factory load was VERY mild...like 670 fps from a snubbie. I remember reading an article where the writer shot a groundhog with one...it ran back into the hole and a minute later came back with blood running down it's neck. It was then killed by a head shot. The "problem" was at the velocities loaded, even from a 4" gun, the bullet would make this great mushroom with the HS post sticking out the top... However if the bullet was run over 900 fps the bullet would violently expand blowing off the HP and the rest of the bullet, which looked a little like a Hersey's Kiss kept right on a truckin'. I shot a row of one quart paper oil cans...the first can blew into pieces, the second can was split wide open and the base of the bullet went through 6 more cans. A standard HP would usually end up in can 3-4.
This is the recovered bullet from that test back about 1982...
This a MeHic 190 grain .41 HBWC {also available in .357/.44/.45} that was run through a 8# Unique jug full of water. The pieces were found in the jug and the base went through the back and was recovered on the snow behind the jug. It split open the carton and blew the cap off...
Matt's Bullets used to sell these but he stopped probably because they are very difficult to cast...
Second test using a row of plastic one gallon milk jugs with a paper carton up front...
Blew the carton apart with lead fragments left behind in the carton...the base went through several more jugs.
The problem is that people who load these bullets think that because they have these big holes in the end that velocity isn't needed to make them "work"...wrong...run them hot enough to tear the nose off and you will not only get a great shock but also penetration...
Federal is sitting on a gold mine in that little 148 HS-WC but they are to busy making their rounds into mushrooms instead of effective defensive ammo....
Bob
ps..Hydra-Shok sold out to Federal...the whole story is in one of Marshall & Sanow books...
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SuperMan
Member
...the FBI also said that the 9mm 147 Subsonic was the be-all and end-all of handguns rounds...didn't exactly work out as planned.
Source please? I would like to read the article.
Doug M.
Member
Original 147 grain 9mm from the ... I want to say early 80s is not at all comparable to modern versions, which have done well.
Lots of interesting comments here, some of which are iffy. Legal issues will vary from state to state, and have changed a lot since Ayoob started writing 40-ish years ago. Lawyers are somewhat less ignorant about use of force (although most are still far too ignorant), and have learned that under the Evidence rules, the bullet/handload stuff should not be admissible. That does not mean they won't try; that does not mean that in certain states they won't succeed. It is conduct worthy of CR11B (frivolous pleadings) sanctions and a bar complaint and discipline, and I would go after opposing counsel's conduct with vigor.
Modern ammo, developed and tested with the FBI protocols in mind (let's say in the last 5, maybe 10 years) is by far the best buy in ammo in terms of actual performance when you need it. In a typical service caliber (9X19; .40 S&W; .357 Sig; 45 ACP) for auto-pistols (where most of that work has been done) those are my first choice. Links to Doc Roberts' testing and list have been posted in many strings by myself and others over the last few years. Buy a bunch; make sure it is reliable in your pistol, and drive on. I tend to also use those loads in revolvers in those calibers (9X19 M940 and .45 ACP), and also .44 Special. In other standard revolver calibers (.38 Special and .41 Magnum), I have gone full reactionary and prefer standard SWC loads at moderate velocity. If recoil sensitive, or when carrying a J frame .38 as a sole weapon instead of a BUG, a best quality WC is a very good choice. (I carry Black Hills.) HOWEVER, one also needs to remember that all pistol rounds suck. A pistol is carried because you son't expect a problem. If you expect a problem, the first choice is to make arrangements to avoid it. (Don't go to stupid places and associate with stupid people.) If you can't avoid it and are not taking a long gun (preferably a rifle), you are not very smart.
Placement is your first problem - all the nifty performance in the world is not worth anything if you do not know and hit the right places. Adequate penetration is the next issue.
More legal issues: As I said above, most lawyers are ignorant about issues related to use of force. Most lawyers practice in little niches and outside that area are lost. I'm a full time government lawyer in an office that does both criminal prosecution and government civil. Most of my background is on the criminal side, assigned to the civil division, and my civil colleagues are often confused by some of my references. (I stay in touch with some criminal issues by my private writing and consulting, and I had to write some appeals this last year for the criminal folks.) It does not mean that they are not skillful in their areas, but they have little need to consider things outside of what they do. Our criminal colleagues are usually boggled by what we do - most of them don't even know what chapters of Washington law control the things we do. It's just too much to know. One of the areas in which we see some big variations across the country is in defenses to civil suits for use of force; many states including my own have provided substantial immunities. An answer valid for one state (or Canada) may be completely worthless for another.
Lots of interesting comments here, some of which are iffy. Legal issues will vary from state to state, and have changed a lot since Ayoob started writing 40-ish years ago. Lawyers are somewhat less ignorant about use of force (although most are still far too ignorant), and have learned that under the Evidence rules, the bullet/handload stuff should not be admissible. That does not mean they won't try; that does not mean that in certain states they won't succeed. It is conduct worthy of CR11B (frivolous pleadings) sanctions and a bar complaint and discipline, and I would go after opposing counsel's conduct with vigor.
Modern ammo, developed and tested with the FBI protocols in mind (let's say in the last 5, maybe 10 years) is by far the best buy in ammo in terms of actual performance when you need it. In a typical service caliber (9X19; .40 S&W; .357 Sig; 45 ACP) for auto-pistols (where most of that work has been done) those are my first choice. Links to Doc Roberts' testing and list have been posted in many strings by myself and others over the last few years. Buy a bunch; make sure it is reliable in your pistol, and drive on. I tend to also use those loads in revolvers in those calibers (9X19 M940 and .45 ACP), and also .44 Special. In other standard revolver calibers (.38 Special and .41 Magnum), I have gone full reactionary and prefer standard SWC loads at moderate velocity. If recoil sensitive, or when carrying a J frame .38 as a sole weapon instead of a BUG, a best quality WC is a very good choice. (I carry Black Hills.) HOWEVER, one also needs to remember that all pistol rounds suck. A pistol is carried because you son't expect a problem. If you expect a problem, the first choice is to make arrangements to avoid it. (Don't go to stupid places and associate with stupid people.) If you can't avoid it and are not taking a long gun (preferably a rifle), you are not very smart.
Placement is your first problem - all the nifty performance in the world is not worth anything if you do not know and hit the right places. Adequate penetration is the next issue.
More legal issues: As I said above, most lawyers are ignorant about issues related to use of force. Most lawyers practice in little niches and outside that area are lost. I'm a full time government lawyer in an office that does both criminal prosecution and government civil. Most of my background is on the criminal side, assigned to the civil division, and my civil colleagues are often confused by some of my references. (I stay in touch with some criminal issues by my private writing and consulting, and I had to write some appeals this last year for the criminal folks.) It does not mean that they are not skillful in their areas, but they have little need to consider things outside of what they do. Our criminal colleagues are usually boggled by what we do - most of them don't even know what chapters of Washington law control the things we do. It's just too much to know. One of the areas in which we see some big variations across the country is in defenses to civil suits for use of force; many states including my own have provided substantial immunities. An answer valid for one state (or Canada) may be completely worthless for another.
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Here is Dr. Roberts again:
http://www.dlgunsmithing.com/uploads/4/5/8/2/45825609/wound_ballistics_2013_gary_roberts.pdf
Excerpt for T2C:
'Unlike rifle bullets, handgun bullets, regardless of whether they are fired from pistols or SMG's, generally only disrupt tissue by the crush
mechanism. In addition, temporary cavitation from most handgun bullets does not reliably damage tissue and is not usually a significant mechanism of wounding.'
http://www.dlgunsmithing.com/uploads/4/5/8/2/45825609/wound_ballistics_2013_gary_roberts.pdf
Excerpt for T2C:
'Unlike rifle bullets, handgun bullets, regardless of whether they are fired from pistols or SMG's, generally only disrupt tissue by the crush
mechanism. In addition, temporary cavitation from most handgun bullets does not reliably damage tissue and is not usually a significant mechanism of wounding.'
CTG_COLLECTOR
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Here's two from long ago,70s'/80s' ? I was given them by a coin shop proprietor back then. Was only given two and put them aside. Headstamp is HYDRA-SHOK. Don't know the manufacturer. Not to be confused with the current Federal Hydra-Shok,but maybe they were Federals' early/initial version.
What you have is some original Hydra Shok 146gr UDL (Ultimate Defense Load) designed by Tom Burczynski.
I've the read the article and agree with the comments about temporary wound cavity. The engineering types with their slide rules and energy formulas would argue the opposite. I base my opinion on investigating shooting incidents and my personal observations at autopsies. Shot placement with good projectile penetration, where the projectile crushed tissue and bone, and remained inside the assailant appeared to be effective.
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I am not familiar with the name. Is that someone who is/was a member on the S&W Forum?
Deadmeat2 was a medical examiner who posted the thread "Tales from the Morgue" on this very forum 11 years ago. It is not available here anymore. However, it was such a landmark thread that it exists on the interweb in many places. Though it is impossible to know to what exent the copies of the thread have been edited.
Here is an example:
Terminal ballistics as viewed in a morgue
My favorite quote from deadmeat2: "A hollow point won't hurt a .45."
He noted that larger calibers, .40 and up, tended to plow through bone and other tissue, while 9s tended to be deflected and zip all around.
Another great quote:
'The standing joke in the morgue is to guess the caliber by looking at the x-rays.'
With context:
'You're correct in what you're thinking. Yes, the 9mm and .380 are the rounds I most often see on the autopsy table, but they're also the rounds that usually require multiple hits to make the kill. The standing joke in the morgue is to guess the caliber by looking at the x-rays. If multiple rounds show up on the x-rays more often than not it's a 9mm or .380 (or .32 or .25 or some mouse gun caliber). If only one round shows up, it could be an inordinately good hit with a .380 or 9mm, but more likely it's a .40 or .45.'
Here is an example:
Terminal ballistics as viewed in a morgue
My favorite quote from deadmeat2: "A hollow point won't hurt a .45."
He noted that larger calibers, .40 and up, tended to plow through bone and other tissue, while 9s tended to be deflected and zip all around.
Another great quote:
'The standing joke in the morgue is to guess the caliber by looking at the x-rays.'
With context:
'You're correct in what you're thinking. Yes, the 9mm and .380 are the rounds I most often see on the autopsy table, but they're also the rounds that usually require multiple hits to make the kill. The standing joke in the morgue is to guess the caliber by looking at the x-rays. If multiple rounds show up on the x-rays more often than not it's a 9mm or .380 (or .32 or .25 or some mouse gun caliber). If only one round shows up, it could be an inordinately good hit with a .380 or 9mm, but more likely it's a .40 or .45.'
Thanks for the link Gamecock. Interesting reading.
I had the opportunity to work plain clothes for several years and our local Forensic Pathologist was very good. We both learned a great deal from each other. She was able to teach me what to look for during an autopsy and I was able to relate what was seen at a crime scene and witness accounts of how a subject reacted to being shot.
It wasn't all self defense shootings, we worked our share of suicides and a few accidental shooting incidents. Some victims I interviewed at the hospital and some I saw at the morgue.
Deadmeat2 has a lot more time in the morgue than I did, no question. I'll have to search the internet for more of his posts.
I had the opportunity to work plain clothes for several years and our local Forensic Pathologist was very good. We both learned a great deal from each other. She was able to teach me what to look for during an autopsy and I was able to relate what was seen at a crime scene and witness accounts of how a subject reacted to being shot.
It wasn't all self defense shootings, we worked our share of suicides and a few accidental shooting incidents. Some victims I interviewed at the hospital and some I saw at the morgue.
Deadmeat2 has a lot more time in the morgue than I did, no question. I'll have to search the internet for more of his posts.
