Ring around the primer--too much pressure?

[Kaumheimer]

Your advice would be appreciated on this matter.

Was at the range on Sunday shooting my Freedom Arms .41. One of the regulars, a member of the Silhouette Club, was kibbitzing, watching me shoot and checking out my spent brass. He noted that a few had a dark ring around the primer and he suggested that I should toss the shells--they were damaged from too much pressure.

Only a few of the shells had the dark discoloration and none seemed flattened. (see photo--the two on the left display the ring and the one on the right was "normal").

I'm shooting 2400 at the very low end of the scale for a 220 gr SWC according to the data from Oregon Trail Bullet Company (which sold me cast 215 gn bullets not 220s). They sent me something that was obviously photocopied from a printed loading manual but I couldn't figure out the original source.



I can't find data for a 220 gn cast bullets in either Speer 14 or Lyman 49. I'm shooting anywhere between 17.5 and 19 gn 2400. The data I got recommend starting at 18.4 for the 215 SWC but I can hit stuff pretty well at 100 yds+ at 17.5.

(The 220s were made locally by a guy here in Hawaii who does wonderful work).

Are those "rings" something to be concerned about?

The primers, btw, are Winchester and the exteriors is a bit oxidized. He suggested using Federal primers because they fit more snugly than the Winchesters.

Any comments are welcomed.

mahalo

Rob

 

[Aticus]

Looks like enlarged primer pockets. It's really not a pressure problem so much as a brass problem. Chuck 'em the problem will only get worse. Primer pockets will enlarge with use. It's normal just replace them.

Pecos

 

[Kaumheimer]

Thanks Pecos...I can live with that.

 

[dla]

I second the "bad brass" opinion. Have you noticed any pitting around the firing pin?

 

[lpspinner]

That may be a little too high as Speer #12 list a 220gr JSP-SWC with a max of 15.8gr and a start of 14.2gr. We know that lead will be less.

A 2005 Alliant booklet I have shows 16.4gr as max for a 220gr JHP.

My 48th ed Lyman shows a 215gr (#2 Alloy) Lead bullet with 16.2gr as Max and 14.5gr as starting charge.

Hope this helps eh brah?

 

[Sebago Son]

I think I'm seeing gas leakage around the primer. Also it would appear as though your primers are a little 'proud' of the surrounding rim.

Question: Do you clean your primer pockets? It is possible that the primer was seated against some residual ash or carbon deposit and not fully in the pocket itself. This would allow some gas to get by the primer.

Before I hucked out a bunch of expensive brass, I'd decap and examine these cases. Then I'd fastidiously clean the primer pocket and load them again, maybe with a lighter charge, to see if that helps.

Softer primers such as the Federals may well deform during the process of seating and give you a better seal. Just don't crush them...

Drew

 

[gwpercle]

After a few magnum reloads sometimes the primer pockets loosen and start leaking. I wouldn't say the brass is defective it's just worked hard and the high pressure enlarges the pocket and it starts leaking.
I had the same experience, to make my brass last longer I reduced my loads. Heavy bullets run pressures up quickly, if you can't find published data on the bullet you ars using then be sure to err on the side of caution.
The choice is high performance and short case life or backing down the load and longer case life. I'm thinking the leaking is telling you this load is just a touch too warm...I would cut back to 15 grs 2400 and see how that works.
When you are seating primers they should offer some resistence if they go in too easily don't use them for magnum loads.
I've started loading my 41 mag. and 215 or 220 cast swc to 800 to 900 fps velocity and the cases last much longer, so far Ive reloaded them 8 times and they still doing fine.

 

[Kaumheimer]

Guys, really appreciate the suggestions. Re your comments:

No, I haven't noted pitting on the firing pin--but then again I haven't looked. Will do so.

Yes, I do note (re lps spinner's comment) that the load seems high according to my manuals. I normally don't like pushing things for all the obvious reasons. I also find it a bit uncomfortable to shoot hot loads. I loaded the 210 gn bullets I got from other sources at around 14.5 or 15 gns of 2400 and it performed just fine on a Model 57.

I switched to the 220 gn cast bullets from the local guy because the 210 SWC cast commercial bullets would lead the Freedom Arms gun in a bad way. They were the wrong diameter I guess. (You'd think a bullet manufacturer would have an idea of how to load their bullets).

I admit that I am kind of in the dark with the 220 load. I leaned on the manufacturer of a 215 gn cast bullet because I figured it was the closest thing to the 220 I could find where data was available.

And mea culpa (re Sebago Son's comment) I do not regularly clean out the primer pocket. That could be the issue. Will definitely do that more often and start using Federal primers so perhaps they seat more snugly.

mahalo nui loa to all of you!

 

[M29since14]

First, as Drew said, try cleaning your pockets before you chuck the brass, and try another brand of primer. I do not think your load is dangerous because the primers themselves do not appear flattened to any degree.

Can you push a primer into the case easily, as in with very little pressure during the seating process? If you can, then you know the fit is not too good. Federal primers will seat more easily than others, but even with a Federal, the primer should not seem to just "pop in." It should take steady force and it should be fairly predictable from case to case. Winchesters even more so.

As to your load, there are a lot of variables between Indiana and Hawaii but I have used the H&G #258 bullet with the same charge of #2400 you are using for a long time. 19.0 grains is a pretty stout .41 load, but I have never seen any indication that is was unsafe in my loads. Of course, your scales, guns, etc., could all be a bit different than mine and cause your load to produce a bit more pressure. It doesn't look like your load is over-pressure from a seat-of-the-pants perspective, but if you have not already done it, why not get a set of standards for your scale and check them to be sure your 18 or 19 grains is actually 18 or 19 grains? It is cheap insurance to keep an eye on your scales. Real cheap.

Is your gun in good repair? Everything nice and clean and no excessive endshake or yokeshake?

 

[RSWMTB]

Very informative thread!



Thanks.



r

 

[bobsdad]

Recheck your Speer Manual

Both my old #13 Speer and new #14 Speer reloading manuals list the same charge of 2400 for both JSP and lead SWC: 14.2 - 15.8 using CCI 300 primers. At that level they give 1139 and 1215 fps as the corresponding velocities. I'm looking at page 928 in the Speer #14. I agree that dirty or enlarged primer pockets seems to be the simplest explaination.

 

[GF1]

The advice about checking the brass closely then loading again and noting carefully the pressure required to seat a new primer is smack on.

You don't note the brass brand, but I've loaded 17 gr. of 2400 in the .41 Magnum for over 20 years, with 215 gr SWCs cast hard, std (Federal) primers, Starline or Remington brass, to no ill effects and with long brass life. I increase that charge to 17.5 gr. w/ 210 gr jacketed bullets for the same POI at 50 yards as the 215 gr lead load.

 

[Kaumheimer]

Gentlemen,

Again, mahalo for all the input and excellent advice from everyone.

FWIW I have been using mostly Starline and Remington brass. Both guns are in good repair and clean. I have switched to Federal and will use the Winchester primers on 45s. M29since14, appreciate the suggestion on the standards for the scales and other comments.

Here's a shot of the Koko Head public range where I shoot. It's actually located in an old volcanic crater.

 

[M29since14]

Thanks for that picture. Shooting in the crater of a volcano, eh?

I didn't notice until I re-read your original post that you were shooting a FA .41, which I am sure is a sturdier gun than the S&Ws I use that load in.

Let us know what you find out about your black mystery rings. I can't see there is much of a problem there but it never hurts to be cautious about anything you notice unusual with handloads.

 

[358156hp]

It's time to replace your brass if you're experiencing leakage around the primer, which you are. Brass is a lot cheaper than repairing a pitted frame, and replacing the firing pin bushing.

 

[dla]

Gentlemen,

Again, mahalo for all the input and excellent advice from everyone.

FWIW I have been using mostly Starline and Remington brass. Both guns are in good repair and clean. I have switched to Federal and will use the Winchester primers on 45s. M29since14, appreciate the suggestion on the standards for the scales and other comments.

Here's a shot of the Koko Head public range where I shoot. It's actually located in an old volcanic crater.

By the way, the only brass I've had leak like that was Remington. I've never had an issue with Starline.

 

[tappedandtagged]

I am also having my Rem brass leak a bit. I got a bunch second hand from a friend and have loaded the around three times. The R-P brass was always easier (much easier) to seat a primer in. I just check mine every time I shoot and discard any that show leakage. And when I say discard, I mean I bend the mouths shut and leave them at the range. They don't even make it home. I switched from CCI to Winchester primers. The Win primers seem a tad larger and may prolong the usability of the stretched out Rem brass.

 

[stick_man]

Guys, really appreciate the suggestions. Re your comments:

No, I haven't noted pitting on the firing pin--but then again I haven't looked. Will do so.

Yes, I do note (re lps spinner's comment) that the load seems high according to my manuals. I normally don't like pushing things for all the obvious reasons. I also find it a bit uncomfortable to shoot hot loads. I loaded the 210 gn bullets I got from other sources at around 14.5 or 15 gns of 2400 and it performed just fine on a Model 57.

I switched to the 220 gn cast bullets from the local guy because the 210 SWC cast commercial bullets would lead the Freedom Arms gun in a bad way. They were the wrong diameter I guess. (You'd think a bullet manufacturer would have an idea of how to load their bullets).

I admit that I am kind of in the dark with the 220 load. I leaned on the manufacturer of a 215 gn cast bullet because I figured it was the closest thing to the 220 I could find where data was available.

And mea culpa (re Sebago Son's comment) I do not regularly clean out the primer pocket. That could be the issue. Will definitely do that more often and start using Federal primers so perhaps they seat more snugly.

mahalo nui loa to all of you!

A couple thoughts for you. First, as already indicated, the Federal primers seem to be slightly larger than the Winchesters. If your brass has been fired multiple times, the primer pocket could very well have enlarged a little bit.

Second thought... don't discount those commercial bullets as being the "wrong" size. Because of differences in barrels, there is no "one size fits all" in ANY caliber that works perfectly. I have seen .44mag barrels measure anywhere from .4275 to .431 and from the same manufacturer being .428-.430. Most .44 barrels will measure .428-.4285, so commercial bullet casters have pretty much gone with a standard size of .429" to work well with the largest number of guns they can. I am guessing your FA .41mag has a bore diameter of .411-.415 and the commercial size is .411. Shooting an undersized lead bullet will lead your barrel all day long, moreso than a bullet that is cast from either too soft or too hard an alloy.

 

[Homie]

Rob,
FWIW, Lyman #4CBH shows 16.2 gr./2400 as max. w/ the Saeco 220 gr. #418. Lots of other good advice already posted.
BTW-Love your "home range". I shot there a few years back sighting in for a deer/goat hunt on Molokai with one of your fellow locals.

Good shooting.

 

[watergun1929]

Primers

If you are using a hand primer you will be able to feel the normal primer seat. If it seats TOO easily you can feel it. That means an enlarged primer pocket. Once you seat primers enough you can feel it easily. It's all with practice.