Rollin White

[first-model]

Hello everyone,

I'm a history student at North Carolina State University and an antique arms collector, and I'm interested in possibly doing a thesis on Rollin White.

There's an obvious connection between Rollin White and Smith and Wesson, and I suspect that more than a few collectors of S&W also have a Rollin White or two in their collection. That's why I figured I'd post here.

I know that there are three models in Flayderman's guide that are known to be from Rollin White's shop, plus a fourth possible attribution, plus the guns made by the Lowell Arms Co. Flayderman gives rough production volumes and dates of manufacture, but little else.

So I'm obviously interested in the guns themselves, but I'm also interested in any other information about Rollin White's life, his interaction with Smith & Wesson, and his own arms businesses. I've been able to find very little about this, and a look at newspapers of the time shows no advertising for his products.

At this point I'm not sure exactly what I'd be writing about in a thesis; that's why I'm casting a wide net to see what people might have that they'd be willing to share.

And since this thread is useless without pictures, here's a single shot .32 rimfire from my collection:

Mike

 

[dltvette]

Mike, here is a link to a Rollin White discussion here:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/286524-rollin-white-pistols.html#post136907913

I have serial no. 220 marked, Made For Smith & Wesson on top of the barrel & By Rollin White Arms Co. Lowell Mass. on the left side of the barrel. 7-shot, .22 RF.
Dave

 

[first-model]

Thanks Dave. Lots of good information there.

Mike

 

[PALADIN85020]

Mike,

I wrote an article on the S&W Model 1. The link to it is found below. I included some info on the relationship between Rollin White and S&W, but not with a great bit of detail. The article was subsequently published in the December, 2012 issue of Dillon's Blue Press catalog/magazine.

John

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/257966-forthcoming-article-model-1-a.html

 

[first-model]

I wrote an article on the S&W Model 1. The link to it is found below. I included some info on the relationship between Rollin White and S&W, but not with a great bit of detail. The article was subsequently published in the December, 2012 issue of Dillon's Blue Press catalog/magazine.

Thanks John! I made a note of this in my list of literature that discusses Rollin White. Every little bit helps.

Mike

 

[mrcvs]

A lot of what involved Rollin White in his day was an attempt by competitors of Rollin White to avoid infringement on his patent, as held by Smith & Wesson.

Here are two examples of this:

gundersonmilitaria.com - Connecticut Arms Co., front loading pocket revolver

These were produced in Norfolk, Connecticut during the Civil War; and

A Moore Teat-Fire Revolver:

Antique Arms, Inc. - Early Moore/National Arms Teat-Fire Revolver w/Hooked Extractor

I own an example of each although not the ones pictured.

I am fascinated by the ingenuity of inventors during that era attempting to avoid patent infringement and thought about trying to create a collection of revolvers created just to avoid that.

Hey, make sure that your advisor is into firearms as well. A tip-off might be the NRA sticker in the back windshield of his vehicle. If they don't like guns, you might find yourself struggling to pass your thesis defense. I know when I was at college, you really didn't want to admit you were fascinated by guns, as it definitely put you in the unpopular minority. I guess that's why they call it the liberal arts!

 

[first-model]

A lot of what involved Rollin White in his day was an attempt by competitors of Rollin White to avoid infringement on his patent, as held by Smith & Wesson.

This is pretty apparent when one flips through Flayderman's guide book. Page after page of guns that look almost like the S&W Model 1. As you noted, many have small variations to slide around the Rollin White patent. And some are just blatant copies.

I almost bought a Moore teat fire last year. The seller and I couldn't quite agree on price. It was a pretty gun, although it quickly became obvious that finding an original box of ammo would be as expensive a proposition as the gun itself.

Hey, make sure that your advisor is into firearms as well. A tip-off might be the NRA sticker in the back windshield of his vehicle. If they don't like guns, you might find yourself struggling to pass your thesis defense. I know when I was at college, you really didn't want to admit you were fascinated by guns, as it definitely put you in the unpopular minority. I guess that's why they call it the liberal arts!

I'm probably a year or so off from actually writing the thesis, which is why I'm laying the groundwork now ... and that includes finding a thesis advisor that won't scream "OH MY GOD IT'S A GUN RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"

One of the fringe benefits of living in North Carolina is the abundance of pro-2A folks. I've been surprised how many firearms enthusiasts are working at the university. That said, they probably don't advertise it much ... but they're there if you root around for them.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. One of the things that's so enjoyable about this are the people in this community and the willingness to share information.

Mike

 

[dltvette]

Mike, Here are a few Infringements & Evasions of the Rollin White Patent that he had to defend in court for Smith & Wesson.
Dave
The first photo starting on top left:
(top left): Plant Front Loading, .30 cup-primed, 5-shot.

(center left): Brooklyn Firearms Slocum, sliding individual cylinder chambers, .32 rim-fire, 5-shot.

(bottom left): Lucius W. Pond, Tip-Up, .32 rim-fire, 6-shot.

(top right): Ethan Allen & Co. Sidehammer, .32 rim-fire, 6-shot.

(center right): National Arms Co. Front loading, .32 Teat-Fire, 6-shot with hooked extractor on right side of frame.

(bottom right): Moore's Pat. Firearms Co., Front Loading, .32 Teat-Fire, 6-Shot.
The remainder photo's are close-up shots.
Dave

 

[first-model]

Mike, Here are a few Infringements & Evasions of the Rollin White Patent that he had to defend in court for Smith & Wesson.

Dave, that's a beautiful collection. Thanks for sharing.

If I end up doing this thesis, I may end up contacting you for more details about some of these guns.

Mike

 

[opoefc]

1stModel, A thesis on Rollin White will need a substantial review by the author on the legal problems between Dan Wesson & White. Roy Jinks says he has a complete file on the Court testimony, exhibits, transcripts, etc, of the several law suits by S&W against infringers and Rollin White. Roy can probably furnish you details on how to get copies, etc. White started out working for Colt and Colt archives may have some details on why he parted ways with them. A thesis, to be complete and correct, need to bring forward new facts and info. previously unknown. Details of White's private life, politics, education, family history, etc. might provide the unknown material. Was he a closet Democrat? Military vet.? Wife beater? Criminal record? Property owner? Details of his birth, death & Estate, etc. Good luck, Ed.

 

[pwebdoc]

First-Model et al.,
Years ago I photocopied my resource material on Rollin White for a researcher from Oregon. He was to write a book on the subject. If it
was written, I do not know.
I have Rollin Whites (including a .22 7-shot variation not in Flayderman) and O.S. Cummings, from Lowell, Massachusetts, USA. All are for sale.

 

[Boge]

Most importantly know that President Grant vetoed the extension of his patent in what was clearly an overreach of power. Rollin White was screwed because the Military did not want to pay royalties. Given the rampant corruption in the Grant Admin. this was no surprise:


Ulysses S. Grant: Veto Message

 

[glowe]

I have always been intrigued by the circumstances that lead White to leave Colt, but if he hadn't, we well might not have any S&W company today. We all know the major reason given, but what was the overall working relationship at Colt? His decision certainly changed the history of handgun development and gave S&W the ability to successfully compete in a US market dominated by Colt.

You have some great links and content to use, but wondered what the basis of your thesis would be? From a historical perspective, the history of handgun development would have certainly changed and it would be interesting to opine on what the industry would look like today if Colt had adopted White's bored through cylinder patent. From a business perspective, a major question would be if S&W had a chance to succeed without White's patent? Final question is would there be a S&W company today without White??

Good luck and remember us if you complete the thesis, since many here would love to read it.

 

[Boge]

...Final question is would there be a S&W company today without White??...

Actually, at that time in Europe there was a thriving handgun market & incredible developments. In some ways they were ahead of us, e.g., "self cockers". The self contained CF metallic ctg. was used in revolvers in Europe before the USA by Adams in England.

 

[Askeladden]

I think i know of a Norwegian collector that has a model 1.5 .32S&W with Rollin White markings.

 

[model3sw]

I had a passion to try to collect at least one of all the Rollin White patent infringement guns but that wore off after several years.

While S&W paid Rollin White for the exclusive right to manufacture revolvers with the bored through cylinder, the right to produce the metallic cartridge was negotiated from Lefacheax (of France). See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_Lefaucheux

Did you know the deal that DB Wesson and Horace Smith made with Rollin White was that RW received a certain amount of money per gun (I cannot recall how much but it seemed like a pittance when I read it) .

For this "royalty" Rollin White had to aggressively defending his patent and prosecute all the "patent infringements", personally and solely from his royalty payments.

Well, Rollin White ... who should have been "set" for the rest of his life ... was going broke. After confrontations with DB and Horace he left S&W to form his own Rollin White Patent firearms company. It was unclear of whether RW allowed S&W to continue production or not but not too long after Rollin White broke his ties with S&W, Horace and DB renegotiated the deal with Rollin White to get him back.

Almost same scenario how S&W screwed Maj George W. Schofield for his improvements to the Model 3 Revolver that was sheer genius. That is why most Schofields found today are mostly intact and still mechanically functional as the latch / catch revision solved the problem of the stress to the upper latch posts from simple wear to distortion of the upper post, bent latches etc on heavier loads. Also the Hammer / Sear were sturdier and improved.

Well, Maj Schofield got his earned royalty for that revision on the Government contract issue guns only (or S&W would not have gotten any further Gov't Orders. In order so circumvent any further royalties to Major George Schofield ... when the Model 3 was revised again to the "NEW Model 3 Revolver" production reverted back to the older system of latch only catching directly onto the softer frame posts of the frame of the revolver instead of continuing with the Schofield latch / catch mechanism of hardened and REPLACEABLE wearable parts (if service ever became necessary, the worn parts could be replaced) but most Schofield Models did not need this replacement as they were hardened steel, whereas when the same happened to the unrevised models, the frame was basically JUNK. That Schofield revision was Genius !!

One example of many how Horace and D.B. ( very similar to other magnates of the industrial revolution) hated to share profits with ANYONE !!

S&W was well known for being "thrifty" ( tight wads / cheapskates / pinch-pennies ) as not much of anything that could possibly be used or sold was not thrown away. They saved everything.