Ropers on a K-22

[DCWilson]

I bought a set of southpaw Roper-style thumbrest stocks from a forum member. My right hand continues to accumulate more and more problems, and I think I am going to have to transition to left-hand shooting. What better excuse to buy a pair of designer target stocks?

Here's how they look on a K-22 I had lying around.

The fit is obviously not perfect, and there are some invisible modifications I can make to shrink the gaps and align them a little better to the frame. For example, the right stock was never adequately relieved for the round-head sideplate screw that lies behind the trigger guard. I'll just open that up a little, and the wood should lie flat to the steel.

I am a complete Roper noob, and I hope someone with more experience will tell me in more detail what I have. The shape of this set is wonderful, with nice left side palm swell, subtle finger grooving, and a thumb rest that is like a cradle. The checkering is different from what I have seen on photos of other Roper stocks. Could these be imitation Ropers made by somebody who got the form right but was a little tentative in executing the decorative detail?

Here's a photo of the right panel against a mirror to show the checkering in the thumbrest and near the lower backstrap more clearly:

And here are shots of the inside surfaces. They were apparently once installed on K-22 K52115, if I am reading the legend correctly. I understand early Ropers have a single square hole below the screw hole that held the workpiece in the jig. Here there seem to be two small rectangular jig attachment holes about an inch and a half apart and bracketing the screw hole.

I don't mind if these are Roper knock-offs, because they feel very good and show a lot of attention to dimensions and contours. But if anyone can say anything about them to help me understand exactly what they are, I would very much appreciate it.

 

[wheelgun610]

..... I hope someone with more experience will tell me in more detail what I have.... .... The checkering is different from what I have seen on photos of other Roper stocks.

Those are the real deal. You can take that to the bank. Damn fine set, I might add. Once you've seen your first set of genuine Roper's, there's no mistaking them for imitations. The Roper checkering patterns are quite varied, but the one's I've seen tend to follow a basic 'theme'.

Not all the Roper's I've seen were numbered to a particular gun, but one could speculate that those with S/N's scribed inside were ordered (and fitted) to the gun bearing that S/N.

Here's an inside shot of a set I have that are numbered (presumably) to a K-38 with that S/N.

And here they are on a pre-war .38 M&P Target model....

Could these be imitation Ropers... ?

Nope. No way.

Mark

 

[Hammerdown]

Hello David
Rest assured they are Ropers made by Matheis Gagne. I came across a set for a K-Sq. Frame many Moons ago{Shown on my K-32 masterpiece}. Mine like yours have the Square Peg holes on the rear of the Panels.They are also Inscribed K-22 Outdoorsman and Dated 1936 but have no serial number. I would say yours were fitted to an early M&P Target as the serial number is a Little early for a K-22 Outdoorsman Model.


Back then, The frame's differed some as noting was exact, so Gagne Often fitted them to The frames they were Intended for, and I assume that Pre-War K-Model had a slightly different frame dimension, compared to the Post-War Models that were Later standardized. Mine are relived for the Upper side Plate screw as shown, as well as the Revolver's Strain screw area. One thing You Need to be aware of is that, Not All Roper's have the Square Peg hole's on the rear of them.


I have a Pair that fit The-N-Square frame shown, and they are lacking the square Peg Holes. I was Leary of them when I swapped for them, but felt they Looked far too Good to be anything other than Original Roper's due to their elaborate Clover leaf checkering, Bell shaped Bottom and Palm swells.I further Felt they had to be Originals as I have not seen anyone else Re-Produce them Other Than Keith Brown. After I got them Home, I sent close up pictures to Our Forum Roper grip expert Keith Brown and he confirmed they are Indeed Genuine Ropers. Keith went on to elaborate later in Time Roper more than Likely changed his Jig Holding device leaving Off those square Peg holes he had used previously, Hence No Square Peg Holes. Regards, Hammerdown





K-Sq. Ropers

Later Roper-N-Sq. Frame Grips without Square Peg Holes

 

[DCWilson]

Mark and Kurt,

Thank you for the education. Maybe I should have been required to take a Roper ownership pre-qualification exam before I jumped on these. Most of what I know about Ropers is based on the appearance of Keith Brown's modern masterpieces, so I was probably not properly qualified to evaluate the older Gagne production.

I have a Target M&P, and I will try these Ropers on it later today. But I have the feeling that with the five-digit serial numbers incised in both these stocks and the ones in Mark's post, these were made for guns of postwar manufacture -- say 1948-1949 or thereabouts.

With a little further online research this morning, I discovered that the two square holes on the inner surface are the classic indicators of Gagne's work for Roper. Working from memory I had recalled incorrectly that the jig commonly used left only a single square hole. If I had understood that in the first place, I would never have wondered about the maker of these stocks.

Again, I thank you for your comments. I am delighted to have these stocks.

 

[RKmesa]

Very Nice

DC:

Love those stocks on that K-22. They are beautiful, and make me want improve my left handed shooting skills... well almost.

 

[digi-shots]

David,

Those are great looking Roper grips! Nice catch!

I'm still on the lookout for some that will fit an S&W. So far, I've found 2 pair, both for Colt's.

 

[j38]

Nice find, David! ... and, all of you - beautiful wood!

Jerry

 

[29aholic]

I am glad you bought those cuz you saved me some money. I am left handed and considered buying them for my K22, but just couldnt chin the pole this close to Tulsa.
Congrats David

 

[Keith Brown]

DC, Thats a nice set of Ropers you have, I'm a lefty also so they would work just fine for me! And it's good that you had an old K-22 lying around also. I've worked on two sets of RH K-frame thumb rest Ropers that had the same checkering pattern except that one set had the upper portion of the thumb rest area left smooth and the other had the same area grooved. The checkering looks right to me,probably about 18 lpi, some Ropers I've seen have coarse checkering that was cut with a V chisel that is closer to 14 LPI. I'm pretty sure that type was cut by Mathis Gagne himself as he is pictured doing it this way and he probably was the only one skilled enough.

Hammerdown, thanks for the title "Roper grip expert" but I'm not at all, I'm a student of such things like the rest of you. Having made grips helps me understand what I'm seeing maybe a bit better than some. The things we discussed concerning you grips and the answers I gave were based on the changes I've made along the way in making my own grips. The tools one uses, how they are used and other equipment are always evolving. The is why I have no doubt over time different methods might have been used to hold the grips for checkering, even if only for a set or two before maybe giving up and going back to the tried and true method. An area I neglected to mention that may be just as good as the peg holes for confirming who made the grips and maybe even better is the filler area behind the trigger guard. This area is almost always expertly inletted to wrap around the trigger guard bow, I've never seen any other grips that had this feature, it would have taken someone like Gagne to do this work.

Early on both Kevin Williams and Steve Bryson kindly offered information that they had accumulated and this allowed me to get up to speed quickly on the subject of Roper grips. I doubt I could have ever found the info on my own so a big thanks to both those gentleman!

Sorry for the slight thread drift but I though I should set the record straight.

Keith

 

[Hammerdown]

DC, The checkering looks right to me,probably about 18 lpi, some Ropers I've seen have coarse checkering that was cut with a V chisel that is closer to 14 LPI. I'm pretty sure that type was cut by Mathis Gagne himself as he is pictured doing it this way and he probably was the only one skilled enough.

Hammerdown, thanks for the title "Roper grip expert" but I'm not at all, I'm a student of such things like the rest of you. Having made grips helps me understand what I'm seeing maybe a bit better than some. The things we discussed concerning you grips and the answers I gave were based on the changes I've made along the way in making my own grips. The tools one uses, how they are used and other equipment are always evolving. The is why I have no doubt over time different methods might have been used to hold the grips for checkering, even if only for a set or two before maybe giving up and going back to the tried and true method. An area I neglected to mention that may be just as good as the peg holes for confirming who made the grips and maybe even better is the filler area behind the trigger guard. This area is almost always expertly inletted to wrap around the trigger guard bow, I've never seen any other grips that had this feature, it would have taken someone like Gagne to do this work.

Keith

Hello Keith
From what I have seen of your Work, You have more than Earned the title of " The Forum Roper Expert" Here. Getting back to Matheis Gagne, Roper did not seem to cast much Light on Gagne. He did write two articles on him In American Rifleman one showing him wearing a Bow Tie and top Hat chiseling the checkering into a set of his grips. The Other article showed Gagne's style of grips being the ones I have and the Ones Dave has which Might I add are Gorgeous. There is Two Roper Hard Back Books with author McHenry and they are more centered towards his developments of hand Gun sights and Perfection of revolver, But a slight mention of his grips is in there as well. Sad, There was Not More Written on Matheis Gagne, he sure deserved to be recognized for his Eye for Detail and Grogeous work. A friend of mine has a set of these Thumb Groove Ropers and Gagne Relieved a Portion of his Grip's to show the S&W Trade Mark. That man was simply amazing and did Gorgeous work with his hand's a simple V-Chisel and a wooden mallet. A Proud Tradition seeing his Grip's and your's Keith.... Hammerdown

 

[au2183]

Beautiful Ropers you got there David, even if they are wrong handed. BTW, if any of those old K-22's hanging around get to be annoying I'll say right now that I would be willing to step up and help relieve you of them. Just say the word. All in the spirit of friendship you understand!

 

[tommy F]

I picked a pair of K Roper that have been modified for a smaller hand. Keith verified this at a recent OGCA.

Tommy

 

[cavedog]

Roper thumbrest K-22 Outdoorsman

i just bought a K-22 Outdoorsman, circa 1932, about 98-99%. I think it sold for a significant discount because it did not have the original factory grips. turns out the grips are the right hand version of what David has shown. Grips are mint and perfect fit, square peg holes. what are these grips worth?

I bought it in Springfield Mass

thanks,

Robin

 

[DCWilson]

Robin, welcome to the forum. I have to believe that northpaw Ropers in the condition you describe are a $300 item, give or take a few. You actually got a discount on the gun because it was burdened with Ropers? Deal of the century!

Can you post pictures? Instructions here:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-forum-office/78728-posting-photos-forum-new-format.html

 

[wheelgun610]

....Grips are mint and perfect fit, square peg holes. what are these grips worth?

It's not easy to set a price range on Roper's for a couple reasons. First, they don't come up for sale all that often, and from what I've seen - no two sets are exactly alike.

Also, Roper grips are often found with the serial number of the gun they were originally fitted to scribed into the insides of each panel. If it turns out that yours are numbered to your K-22, it would likely have a positive influence on the value of the package. There's even a "remote" possibilty that the gun was ordered from the factory with the Roper's.... Seems I recall that there are documented examples of S&W's being shipped with Roper's.

Mark

 

[cavedog]

Roper thumbrest K-22 Outdoorsman

thanks guys

I paid $1000 for the gun - from a friend who is a dealer in Springfield Mass that I have dealt with several times before. no serial nos inside the grips but I have actually wondered about the possibility of these grips being factory.

my dealer friend says just about everybody in Springfield worked for S&W at some point in their life and lots of employee guns there - many shot very little with some neat configurations.

honestly I was simply trying to figure out who made the grips on my gun when I came across this post and found the pics of Dave's lefty grips - then I knew. And a close friend of mine is good friends with Rod Herrett - Rod confirmed they are the real deal.

I may call S&W to see what I can find out if shipped from factory with these grips. I am sure this was an employee gun. also bought same owner's 1965 17-2. been fired, but barely.

my best,

Robin

 

[cavedog]

Roper thumbrest K-22 Outdoorsman

will post pics as I can and figure out this website

S&W 22's - I have a fond spot. my first handgun was a M-41 I bought new (with my Uncle's help) for $325 IN 1979 when I was 16. I caught some crap for carrying it in a holster - for being too long and separately for being a Model 41. It was my trapline gun and hunting companion on a lot of squirrel hunts. But that Model 41 was more instrumental in my becoming both a decent pistol and rifle shot than anything I think I could have done. shot everything with it and it has accounted for at least 15-20x more game than any gun I own - the next closest my Kimber 82 Cascade I bought in 1982.

I still carry and shoot that M-41 - in the old well worn Bianchi holster I bought in 1979 as well. A LOT of money for me in 1979 - and the best $325 I ever spent.

having Rick Bachman at Old West Reproductions make me a holster rig for the 17-2 that reminds you of an old Heiser rig - only I think Rick makes better stuff than the originals. Cant replace my M41, but should be fun to carry that Model 17 as well.

my best,

Robin

 

[DCWilson]

So basically you bought the gun and got the Ropers for free. Nice deal. Wanna make a fast 30% on a turnaround?

I may be off on my timeline but I have it in mind that the earliest Ropers were mid to late 1930s. If your gun dates to 1932, it probably left the factory with standard wood. The Ropers would have been attached to it a little later.

 

[Hammerdown]

I may be off on my timeline but I have it in mind that the earliest Ropers were mid to late 1930s. If your gun dates to 1932, it probably left the factory with standard wood. The Ropers would have been attached to it a little later.

Hello David
Mine are dated 1936 that were made for a K-22 and are scribed on the rear by I assume Gagne the maker of Roper's Grips, so I would say you are correct here on the time line..Hammerdown

 

[DHENRY]

David,
A nice score, and I suspect the left-handed configuration only adds to the grips' rarity.
Below are pictured another set of 1930's Ropers on a 1935 K-22 Outdoorsman's revolver
Don