Rust under blueing?

[BabaBlueJay]

On my model 36 I looked at under flashlight and noticed a lot more of what appeared to be rust than I can see under normal light. A friend told me to take flash photos and I was horrified at how bad it looked. He told me to try some 0000 steel wool and gun oil which I did but it didn't seem to make a dent. My question is, does this mean the rust is beneath the blueing and if so what would you recommend I do? I really enjoy this revolver and want to make it last a lifetime even though I know it was made in the 60s, is there something I can do to preserve or revive it?

Again under normal light you can't tell at all, but as you can see in the flash photo it looks bad.

 

[SVT28]

The gun does not appear to be refinished though the roll marks in the barrel look a little buffed. The side plate looks ok and I see good case colors on the hammer.

I had a transition 38/32 that had a spot like your barrel and some edges of the frame. Grab some CLP and Chore Boy (not knock off pads that may actually be coated steel wool) and use a copious amount of CLP, and scrub lightly with the chore boy. Don't be aggressive, the goal is to subdue the rust and prevent additional from occurring. After a couple of rounds with CLP/CB, wipe down with a clean microfiber removing all of the oil/rust. Then hit it with renaissance wax, that will inhibit the rust from getting worse.

If you don't like how the gun turns out sell it and find a higher condition example adding some more $ in. If it were me I'd clean it up as recommended, and carry it as it with some Fed 130 grain HST.


Hope this helps
SVT28

 

[chief38]

You have a few choices here.

1) just keep it lightly oiled and shoot it.
2) have it professionally re-blued - (at least $300- $350 with shipping).
3) strip it, remove all dings and scratches that are not too deep, do a home re-finish. Cold Blue has not really worked out long term for me (maybe your luck will be better), but there are other methods such as Cerakote.
4) sell it and get a better example.

So those are the options. IMHO refinishing professionally is not worth the expense - UNLESS of course the gun is sentimental or inherited. Then it's hard to put a dollar value on it - been there, done that! The rest is up to you and how much the rust bothers you. If not a sentimental gun, you'd probably be much better off just selling it (and disclosing the truth) and buying a better gun. If you are not willing to lay out more $$, just keep it oiled and shoot it. If kept oiled and wiped down, it might last a good while as it is.

 

[BabaBlueJay]

You have a few choices here.

1) just keep it lightly oiled and shoot it.
2) have it professionally re-blued - (at least $300- $350 with shipping).
3) strip it, remove all dings and scratches that are not too deep, do a home re-finish. Cold Blue has not really worked out long term for me (maybe your luck will be better), but there are other methods such as Cerakote.
4) sell it and get a better example.

So those are the options. IMHO refinishing professionally is not worth the expense - UNLESS of course the gun is sentimental or inherited. Then it's hard to put a dollar value on it - been there, done that! The rest is up to you and how much the rust bothers you. If not a sentimental gun, you'd probably be much better off just selling it (and disclosing the truth) and buying a better gun. If you are not willing to lay out more $$, just keep it oiled and shoot it. If kept oiled and wiped down, it might last a good while as it is.

I'll probably keep it oiled and shoot it. If I have to replace it I'll get a nickel Model 36. It does have sentimental value so I'll reblue it eventually, as the history behind the flat latch is cool to me.

 

[chief38]

I'll probably keep it oiled and shoot it. If I have to replace it I'll get a nickel Model 36. It does have sentimental value so I'll reblue it eventually, as the history behind the flat latch is cool to me.

The ONLY Company I have personal experience with is Midwest Gun Works. They did a spectacular job on two of my long guns and they look better than when they were new! Their prices were reasonable (at the time) and their wait time was about 10 weeks, but admittedly that was a few years ago. Still - worth a phone call.

S&W does not do the old bluing now days, they now do sort of a more blackish satin finish which supposedly is also less durable. Ford's has some good and some terrible reviews, so who knows with them! There are a few other Company's that do it and I would bet others will chime in soon with their own recommendations. Again, not gonna be cheap and will only get more pricey given the inflation period we are now in and the political and legal issues with shipping won't help either.

 

[BabaBlueJay]

The ONLY Company I have personal experience with is Midwest Gun Works. They did a spectacular job on two of my long guns and they look better than when they were new! Their prices were reasonable (at the time) and their wait time was about 10 weeks, but admittedly that was a few years ago. Still - worth a phone call.

S&W does not do the old bluing now days, they now do sort of a more blackish satin finish which supposedly is also less durable. Ford's has some good and some terrible reviews, so who knows with them! There are a few other Company's that do it and I would bet others will chime in soon with their own recommendations. Again, not gonna be cheap and will only get more pricey given the inflation period we are now in and the political and legal issues with shipping won't help either.

I live in the Midwest so I'll probably use their services.ill lightly oil it this year and next summer when I go to China for two months I'll ship it to them that way I won't feel like I'm missing it when it comes back fresh upon my return

 

[alwslate]

Looks like it has been exposed to water for awhile. Rust in every crevice. No way would I spend $350 on that gun for a refinish that might not even remove all the rust. I would steel wool it, clean and oil it the best i could and use it. It will last a life time as is. If you can't stand looking at it sell it and buy another rather than pouring money into this one. A $350 reblue will in no way increase the value by $350.

 

[rct269]

A comment or two----------------------+/-:

1. Steel Wool removes rust.

2. Bluing is rust (Black Oxide)-----the process of bluing is "controlled corrosion".

3. Don't go anywhere near a blued finish with Steel Wool---unless you just don't care. Bronze Wool (and oil), on the other hand, does a fine job of cleaning/blending a blued surface.

4. The primary preparation for bluing is polishing. EXPERT polishing takes time. Time is money. A $350 bluing job will prove to be disappointing----may even bring tears to your eyes.

5. I'm trying to understand just how there could be red rust "under" bluing. I reckon my 60+ years fooling with these things just hasn't been long enough--------then again, I've never had red rust on a gun---probably been too fussy caring for them.

Ralph Tremaine

One more-----a so-so refinishing will reduce the value of a gun by half-----+/-.

 

[oink]

Not a suggestion!

I was wondering how boiling it to convert the red rust and then just oiling it well would work.

Personally for me, as a carry gun, I wouldn't worry about it. Id just keep it lubed and use it.

Your environment and personal circumstances could also be important. Here in hot and humid southern Florida I like guns with some sort of durable finish for a CCW gun. There generally isn't enough clothes worn to conceal anything OWB. That leaves IWB. The gun will get sweat on it regularly so some sort of corrosion resistant finish is ideal. I go for stainless or a good finish. Even stainless will rust in S. FL. The finish used on Glocks, or at least what they used to use, is amazingly rust resistant.

 

[DETROIT]

On my model 36 I looked at under flashlight and noticed a lot more of what appeared to be rust than I can see under normal light. A friend told me to take flash photos and I was horrified at how bad it looked. He told me to try some 0000 steel wool and gun oil which I did but it didn't seem to make a dent. My question is, does this mean the rust is beneath the blueing and if so what would you recommend I do? I really enjoy this revolver and want to make it last a lifetime even though I know it was made in the 60s, is there something I can do to preserve or revive it?

Again under normal light you can't tell at all, but as you can see in the flash photo it looks bad.

With that much rust, I would use flitz and a microfiber towel and some deep cleaning. Stop it before it begins to pit. After the flitz I would follow with renaissance wax and enjoy carrying it.

 

[bananaman]

NEVER use steel wool on blued pistols! Bronze wool with oil will not scratch! Bob

 

[chief38]

Looks like it has been exposed to water for awhile. Rust in every crevice. No way would I spend $350 on that gun for a refinish that might not even remove all the rust. I would steel wool it, clean and oil it the best i could and use it. It will last a life time as is. If you can't stand looking at it sell it and buy another rather than pouring money into this one. A $350 reblue will in no way increase the value by $350.

As I stated in my post above, I generally would agree with you - HOWEVER, if the gun is indeed sentimental and or inherited (as the OP stated), $350 is a small price to pay to preserve it and have it look basically as intended.

One gun I had professionally re-blued was my 1946 made Marlin 39A that I inherited from my Dad and it will NEVER be for sale - at least while I am alive. The gun (as gotten from him) was in perfect mechanical condition however he used that rifle so much, almost 50% of the bluing was gone and even with constant oiling, rust kept coning back worse and worse each time all over the gun. I made a decision based on the fact that it won't be sold and I do want to pass it down, so I sent it to Mid West Gun-works to be refinished. They did what I would call a spectacular job and the gu now looks better than the day it was made! The finish is flawless and it has now been at least 10 years since being done and it still looks perfect!

He had also worn off most of the finish on both the front and rear stocks and so while the rifle was out being refinished I refinished the stock myself. Once the gun came back and I put everything together, I was blown away on just how great it looked! Still looks like new and it is now 77 years old! I still shoot it on a regular basis and have no plans to retire it. Don't remember quite how much it cost me 10 years ago, but I know with freight it was slightly over $300 bucks - and iMHO worth every single cent!

If the OP's Chief's Special is also sentimental to him, $350 to have a proper re-bluing job is well worth it IMHO. Not only won't he be constantly worried about rusting damage again, but he can be proud f what he is shooting. Just think about how much most of us spend on things like eating out, traveling, liquor, etc. You eat and drink - it's gone the next day. You travel and it's just a memory weeks later. For something sentimental I don't think $350 is frivolous. YMMV

 

[chief38]

I will also give you the specifics of another gun re-do I spend big bucks on that monetarily alone wasn't sensible, but worth what I spent to me.

I also inherited a run of the mill High Standard semi auto 12 gauge shotgun from my Dad - not a particularly high end gun. The gun was in perfect mechanical shape and the bluing was pretty good. I took it Pheasant Hunting and the first shot I took left me in shock - I did hit the bird however my face and shoulder was hurting big time and I didn't realize what had happened for a few seconds. The stock of the gun had shattered and split in 3 places! The stock probably had a flaw in it, a piece of grain separating, or had a hairline crack I was not aware of. It was shattered beyond reasonable repair and I decided to have it restocked after a month of failing to find a replacement. The High Standard (made in the early 1960's) was apparently not a very popular gun and I couldn't find any replacement out there new or used. After a long search, I found a stock maker in Montana that agreed to make me a brand new one but he told me he only had really nice fancy wood left. Anyway, I sent him the gun, he charged me $500 bucks to make the new stock and matching fore-end, BUT he did an absolutely fantastic job! He hand checkered both pieces and it actually looks like a high end shotgun now - lol. The stock cost about 4 times what the SG originally cost but it was my Dad's and so the price didn't mater much.

Did it make financial sense - absolutely not. Sentimental sense - yes! I am a sentimental guy - what can I say?! I now get to use the High Standard once again and when people look at it the wonder what it is and how much it costs - they have no idea it was a $119 shotgun- lol!

 

[Heinz]

First of all, "blue" is rust. A sophisticated form of rust, but iron oxide all the same. Th black colored oxide - blue- is not the natural state of affairs. The Blue will very slowly revert to the brown state over time by reacting with more oxygen. If you looki closely at any fifty year old blueing under a bright light you will see some traces of brown. Do not worry about it. Keep it properly oiled or waxed.
Rubbing it with abrasives is going to adversely affect the existing black oxides. Putting a perfectly good old gun in boiling water is not going to do it any good. It may convert some of the brown oxide to black oxide, or, if the drying conditions are wrong convert more black oxide to brown oxide. Removing the gun, or parts, from the boiling water may cause flash rusting on bare metal areas. If you do not know how to properly handle the "carding" after boiling, you can do serious damage. I would clean it with light oil (Kroil or CLP) and then a light coat of Rig or Renaissance wax. As an aside, one of the checks you do on Lugers from the Imperial era with the original rust blued finish is to check them in a bright light for the brown undertones. If it ain't there they have been reblued.
It is your gun, but if it ain't broke don't fix it is not a bad guide.

 

[alwslate]

As I stated in my post above, I generally would agree with you - HOWEVER, if the gun is indeed sentimental and or inherited (as the OP stated), $350 is a small price to pay to preserve it and have it look basically as intended.

One gun I had professionally re-blued was my 1946 made Marlin 39A that I inherited from my Dad and it will NEVER be for sale - at least while I am alive. The gun (as gotten from him) was in perfect mechanical condition however he used that rifle so much, almost 50% of the bluing was gone and even with constant oiling, rust kept coning back worse and worse each time all over the gun. I made a decision based on the fact that it won't be sold and I do want to pass it down, so I sent it to Mid West Gun-works to be refinished. They did what I would call a spectacular job and the gu now looks better than the day it was made! The finish is flawless and it has now been at least 10 years since being done and it still looks perfect!

He had also worn off most of the finish on both the front and rear stocks and so while the rifle was out being refinished I refinished the stock myself. Once the gun came back and I put everything together, I was blown away on just how great it looked! Still looks like new and it is now 77 years old! I still shoot it on a regular basis and have no plans to retire it. Don't remember quite how much it cost me 10 years ago, but I know with freight it was slightly over $300 bucks - and iMHO worth every single cent!

If the OP's Chief's Special is also sentimental to him, $350 to have a proper re-bluing job is well worth it IMHO. Not only won't he be constantly worried about rusting damage again, but he can be proud f what he is shooting. Just think about how much most of us spend on things like eating out, traveling, liquor, etc. You eat and drink - it's gone the next day. You travel and it's just a memory weeks later. For something sentimental I don't think $350 is frivolous. YMMV

In post #4 the OP said the revolver had sentimental value because he thought the history of the flat latch was "cool". Ok. Show me where he said that he had inherited it. You don't think $350 is frivolous for a "proper" re-bluing job huh? Easy to get vicarious thrill from spending someone else's money. As said above the amount of heavy buffing required to re-blue that gun would make it look hideous. That gun will never look like new again no matter what.

 

[2152hq]

You are seeing Bluing revert back to it's Brown Rust original state.

It happens all the time.

Take just about any or your firearms older than 20yrs old that are blued. Doesn't matter if they have been Hot Salt Blued,,Rust Blued or even Carbona Blued.

Shine a bright FlashLite on the surface close up, especially one of the newer LED type.
It will likely show Brown spots that you don't see in natural light.
You sometimes see this Brown color 'under the bluing' when viewing blued firearms outside in very bright sunlight.

Bluing is a form of Iron Oxide yes. But the only one done with the conversion of Ferric Oxide (Brown Rust ) to Ferrous Oxide (Blue/Black Rust is by the Rust Bluing operation ,,boiling water.

The others use different chemicals and or heat to attain their color.
Hot Salts is 300F and a combination of Sodium Hydroxide and Sodium or Potassium Nitrate.
Carbona Bluing is a dry process done at 830F. The bone charcoal and oil charge repeatedly sifts over the parts in a rotating drum.

Old style Charcoal Bluing is the same 830F temp but parts are laboriously handled by hand and covered with simple mounds of burning wood char.
It's a heat-blue.

An older surface that has actually accumulated some fine rust on it can once again turn 'blue' by boiling it in water is because you are simply 'Rust Bluing'.

If there is no active rust on the surface and the brown color patina is the old bluing (no matter how it was applied) reverting back to it's simple form of brown Iron Oxide, then the chances of the boiling water bath in resulting in a nice new bluing coat are slim.

It won't hurt anything to try it,,it's just boiling water. But if you do, use distilled water.
Water with any minerals in it can cause discoloration if there is some rust there to 'convert' from brown to blue black. Gray, red, and other colors in streaks and blotches can result instead of or along with some blue.
That's what we deal with in doing Rust Bluing.
Minerals will also leave spots on the surface as the water drys when the parts are pulled from the boiling water.
They do not just wipe off. Those pin-point pock marks have to be polished off and you start over again. They are the mineral deposits that don't evaporate with the water from the surface.

No oil or grease must be present. All surfaces absolutely clear and clean.
Carding with a fine wire brush or de-oiled steel wool (yes,,STEEL wool) after boiling to remove the loosened rust and leave the color coating.
Steel Wool does not remove the color,,it is used to burnish the color coating and remove the loosened rust.
Imagine that.,,and it's used dry during the process.

Can you rub too hard,,yes of course.
There is a technique to everthing.

 

[alwslate]

Looking at the pics that are under light it looks like there is rust in every small crevice. look at the edge of the side plate and around the permitter of the barrel pin. If it has been under water there may be as much rust inside as outside or even more.

 

[BabaBlueJay]

Looks like it has been exposed to water for awhile. Rust in every crevice. No way would I spend $350 on that gun for a refinish that might not even remove all the rust. I would steel wool it, clean and oil it the best i could and use it. It will last a life time as is. If you can't stand looking at it sell it and buy another rather than pouring money into this one. A $350 reblue will in no way increase the value by $350.

I'm not worried about the value, it's the best shooting gun I've owned other than my 686 collection. All I need to know is will the 350$ re-blue be able to save it and restore it enough to last a long time. If not, I would probably part with it to get a nickel one or another 686.

 

[alwslate]

Clean it as best as you can inside and out, oil it and it will last you the rest of your life without destroying all of the original fitting and close tolerances by wasting $350 on a completely unnecessary re-blue. And you could probably sell it as is for more than you could after a hideous heavily buffed re-blue.

 

[AlHunt]

will the 350$ re-blue be able to save it and restore it enough to last a long time

It really doesn't need saving and it'll already out last your great grandchildren with reasonable care.

Not looking at it under a camera flash will improve it immediately. Bronze wool, gun oil and elbow grease will help your peace of mind. But the damage may already be done. You're going to see every flaw, nook and cranny if/when it gets back from the re-bluer and I doubt that you're going to be happy with how it looks ever again.

Maybe I'm wrong.

ETA: In short, I believe you thought of this as a fairly high condition gun, and now you don't. A $300 or $400 reblue just isn't going to be a high end job.