S&W 25-5 O/S Throats

[pistolairo]

Mike, Do you have any leading concerns with the .452" resized bullets? What is the size of the 454424 out of the mold. I guess .454".

In addition I passed an 1/8 oz. egg sinker thru the throat of the 25-5 and got a measurement of 0.456. This is better than the first measurement that I got. l took the cylinder off & apart and was able to do a much better job at it.

I am going to load up some of the .454 Hornady CowBoys with some Unique and see what happens. I will post the follow up from this test if anyone is interested.

 

[gaucho1]

Please post your results. Thank You

 

[kraken]

kraken

Folks, this is my first post, I just joined today.
I've been reading up on the 25-5 oversize cylinder issue for a couple of weeks, gathering information. But, when I saw pistolairo's post of 1/17/2011, it was like I wrote it. The only thing he left out of my problem was the muzzle measurement. I slugged the very end of the barrel with a .460 lead mini-ball. I used a plastic hammer and as gently as possible bonked the bullet about 1/4" into the barrel from the bullet's first land. I gently pulled it out and I confirmed the gunsmith's measurement at .449/.450 diameter.
My cylinders are between .4575-.458.
(I did take it to my local gun mechanic to slug the cylinder.)

My question is: when I load up a .454 or .455 dia bullet, am I asking for trouble when it gets swagged down to .450 at the muzzle? I load a fair amount of .45C and I would keep the loads within loading manual specs.

This forum has been a wealth of info. And I found out I ain't the only guy with this 25-5 problem.
Thanks now and in advance for all your help.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

welcome to the forum!

kraken-

I am wondering how you measured your bullet?

Unless you have specialized equipment, it is very hard to accurately slug a S&W since they have 5 lands and grooves, which places a groove directly across from a land. If you measured the slug and aren't aware of that, you'll get an undersized number. While you won't be measuring from the top of a land to bottom of the opposing groove with a mic, your mic jaw on one side will be resting across a groove which will give numbers very much like that you came up with. If you used a caliper, it is even harder to get it right on a S&W. It takes a three jawed mic or V block setup to get it right.

To slug your bore, you really need to drive the slug all the way though the bore. Use a wooden dowel rod that is just a smidge smaller than the lands, and drive the lead slug right on out into the cylinder window.

 

[Catshooter]

Gun has a point, it can be tricky measuring an odd-numbered grooved barrel.

The way that seems to help most people is to wrap the slug in an .001 feeler gauge, just one lap. Measure that and then subtract .002 and you're good to go.

To answer your question about driving a .455 bullet down the bore, even if it does measure .450 at the muzzle? No sweat. The bullet won't care and neither will the gun. If in fact your bore tapers, you're lucky. The ideal situation for a bullet is from start to finish things should get progressivley get smaller.


Cat

 

[kraken]

Thank you for such a quick response.
I was aware of the five-land bore problem re: measuring the bore. I used a regular outside mic and took a whole series of measurements around the results of the slugging. They spread from .449 to .450. I only went to the trouble because I was surprised, and a little skeptical, at the 'smith's results. He was using an odd device I had not seen before (and I believe was mentioned earlier in this thread). I just wanted to see for myself. I have since read of the 1/8 oz egg fishing weight and will try it. Oh, and the other mini-balls I used to measure the cylinder bores with no problems.
I wanted to confirm the bore because of my concern about firing a larger bore bullet into a smaller bore barrel.
I was reluctant to pound the bullet down through the barrel (I had slicked it up with bullet lube and I have an appropriately sized hard-wood rod) because I was sure the breech end would be larger and I would not learn anything. I am not sure how to measure the throat with my meager tools and ability.
At any rate, I am putting together a series of .45 loads that I previously fired though the 25-5, as well as some others, to run a test specifically to see if I really do have an accuracy problem.
I can't say enough good things about this forum and you guys.
Thanks for your help.

 

[pistolairo]

Thanks for all the information! I plan on trying a few of the ideas that all of you have shared, and thank you "thedane" for re-assuring me that there still is a chance of making it work. I think I have the lowest rear sight blade available. I would need a higher front sight blade to lower my POA. I'll change my point of aim to correct. I plan on loading up some 200 gr. cast bullets at .454 or .456 and see it this effects POA.

This week; I am planning to load up some .454" Hornady SWC at 250 and stoke them up with some Unique. I'll try 6.5, 7.0, 7.5, gr of Unique and see what happens.

Oh the box is still ready to ship, but not without a few experiments and an oppertunity to learn.

Thanks Again!!

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I think I have the lowest rear sight blade available. I would need a higher front sight blade to lower my POA..

Like I mentioned above in one of my first posts, if your gun is stock, it should have the .126" rear sight blade. You can order a .106" from S&W to try. I did that before I stoned my white outline .126" down to work correctly.

 

[thedane]

Your groups should lower somewhat as your powder charge increases. I use 8.0 to 8.5 grs. which are relatively mild to moderate loads.

 

[pistolairo]

Ref: thedane

What would I expect if I went down to 200 gr bullets Vs 250 gr bullets? Would that lower the bullet impact.? The distance I'm talking is 10 to 15 yards. I am already using 8.5 gr Unique with 250 gr cast Keith's that I purchased off GunB. This is the current load that I am having the leading & large patterns with. On a good note, this same load works great with the 25-7 that I purchased last week. Point of aim right on and all shots are within a 50 cent piece. I'm glad I have a good gun Vs bad gun to compair what works & don't work.

I have read in some threads that lighter wht. bullets will be truer to POA than the heavier bullets. No one has explained why.

Thanks Again
pistolairo

 

[thedane]

Pistolairo,

I recommend that you read the following post from another member on bore-fouling-cleaning. There is a lot of useful information.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/172167-thoughts-bore-fouling-cleaning.html

If lighter bullets are "truer to POA" is has to do with the fact that they are usually exiting the barrel faster then heavier bullets. After ignition, as the bullet begins to exit the barrel the barrel rises in recoil. The longer the bullet is in the barrel the higher the barrel rises and the higher the bullet strike. Generally speaking, lighter bullets are loaded to greater velocity. Therefore, they are in the barrel less time and strike the target lower because the barrel has not risen as much in recoil.

I'm sure you know this, but are you turning the rear elevation screw clockwise to lower it and thus lower the point of impact?

 

[rollin_hot]

Ok, I'm starting to get nervous reading this thread. I have a 25-5 with a 2.5" barrel, can someone explain to me in simple words what if any issues I may have and how to remedy those issues. After reading I am still unclear how big of a problem this bore issue is or is. just a matter of finding theright ammo? Someone speak 3rd grade to me please. Thanks

 

[USSR]

Ok, I'm starting to get nervous reading this thread. I have a 25-5 with a 2.5" barrel, can someone explain to me in simple words what if any issues I may have and how to remedy those issues. After reading I am still unclear how big of a problem this bore issue is or is. just a matter of finding theright ammo? Someone speak 3rd grade to me please. Thanks

rollin_hot,

Yes, I imagine anyone reading this thread (and others), will be thoroughly convinced that their 25-5 is a hopeless case. Before you panic, get yourself a .454" bullet and drop it through each chamber in your cylinder (swing the cylinder open and point the revolver down). If it hangs up and you have to push it out, that is good and you have no problem. If it drops right through cleanly, then you might want to look into sizing your bullets to .455". Just MHO.

Don

 

[dusty3030]

Ok. I just got my first 25-5 in today that I just traded for. 4" nickle, pinned, N prefix 849xxx range.
.452 fell right through.
.458 hung up.
.454 hung up.
So what should I load? .452's or .454's.

 

[Muley Gil]

Try your M25-5 with both .452 and .454 bullets. I believe the .458s would be waaay oversized and would run up pressures.

See which bullet groups the the best.

 

[USSR]

dusty,

Size them to .454". Your throats sound like mine, between .454" and .455". That is good.

Don

 

[dusty3030]

dusty,

Size them to .454". Your throats sound like mine, between .454" and .455". That is good.

Don

Cool. I've got a few of nasty looking but good shooting Remington .454 250 grainer's. Need to load up a batch and try them out.

 

[rollin_hot]

rollin_hot,

Yes, I imagine anyone reading this thread (and others), will be thoroughly convinced that their 25-5 is a hopeless case. Before you panic, get yourself a .454" bullet and drop it through each chamber in your cylinder (swing the cylinder open and point the revolver down). If it hangs up and you have to push it out, that is good and you have no problem. If it drops right through cleanly, then you might want to look into sizing your bullets to .455". Just MHO.

Don

Thank you, I will try this. I do not reload yet so is there any factory ammo that one would recomend over another based on my findings with the .455 bullet?

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Remington factory loads use their 250 grain .455" swaged lead bullet, and Winchester uses their 255 grain .456" swaged lead bullet.
Mag Tec uses a .454" RNFP swaged lead bullet, and I have bought quite a few of them from Cabela's in bulk to load, and they shoot great in my guns, even though mine are correctly throated at .452".

BTW- never check your throats with lead bullets (unless you are purposely trying to slug the throats or bore with an oversized slug which requires driving the oversized slug through with a wooden dowel rod or something similar), since lead is "sticky" by nature (for lack of a better term), and with the lube that is usually on them, they will leave a false impression that your throats are tighter than they are. The Hornady 300 grain XTP works best for this purpose since it is longer than the 250-255's and won't tip as easily when dropped into a throat, which can also give a false impression that throats are tighter than they are.

Truth is, plug gauges work best of all if you have some , or access to some.

 

[pistolairo]

The first picture is that of the egg sinker I used to pass thru my 25-5. A 255 gr 0.454" Hornady SWC wouldn't come close to slowing down in the throat when being dropped thru. the 25-5 throats measured just shy of 0.458". It's a shame because this pistol is a 98% Timed & Tight With a Factory Trigger Pull. Not all is lost, have much to tryout prior to sending pistol in for a new cylinder.

The second picture is the 255gr 0.454" Hornady SWC that I used to ck out the 25-7 that I purchased last week. They ck'd at 0.4523 on close to that on all six throats, very pleased.

The other two pic's are of the 25-5 I have been working on and the new 25-5 that I just picked up. Good Gun & Bad Gun.

I hope this helps out.