S&W 38 M&P model of 1905, 4th change question for the experts

[mojave30cal]

I picked up one of these as a project gun. Serial number
487599, manufactured 1903-1904 based on serial number.
It still has some bluing left, and the grips number to the gun
and are in excellent condition. The barrel is 5 inches long.

My question concerns the thumb piece nut. It currently has
a nickel finished one with smooth sides. I want to replace it
with a blue one. I wondered if I should get one with smooth
sides, or serrated sides?

Thanks in advance.

 

[JP@AK]

First, serial number 487599 puts it in the mid-1920s, not c. 1904. Interestingly, you mentioned "4th change" in your title. The so-called fourth change didn't happen until 1915 (patent date for it is December 29, 1914).

Second, I think for us to be able to assist you, it would be very helpful to see pictures that show the thumbpiece as it now is.

 

[Mbrgr1]

A picture is

worth a thousand words!!!!

 

[Alk8944]

I suspect you will have to settle for whichever you can get, probably current production. I have several early hand ejectors in both .38 and .32-20 and don't recall any of the nuts being different from the others.

 

[Model19man]

They look pretty much the same to me.....this is my model 1899 K frame.....

 

[DWalt]

Actually it is an M&P, not a Model of 1905. S&W dropped that terminology around 1915. I would probably not be too concerned about getting the right vintage replacement so long as it was blued. I think they are all pretty much identical.

 

[Model19man]

Here's a 44 Hand Ejector. As you can see all of them were brass not blued.

 

[AC Man]

Actually it is an M&P, not a Model of 1905. S&W dropped that terminology around 1915. I would probably not be too concerned about getting the right vintage replacement so long as it was blued. I think they are all pretty much identical.

Interesting. I recently purchased a couple of firearms from a dealer that specializes in these guns on Gunbroker and they described it as model 1905 38 special M&P 4th change. They are both mid 1920's.

I'm no expert, but seems that is what the S&W standard catalog refers to them as well.

Now I am interested in when the 4 th change ended?

 

[JP@AK]

AC Man

The so-called 4th change didn't "end." At least not until after the Second World War.

But what you have to understand is that the terminology (e.g. Model of 1905 1st change, 2d change etc.) reflects an analysis of the S&W revolver evolution that was first concocted by Walter Roper, along with his co-author Roy McHenry in the 1930s. Their book wasn't even published until 1945. It was a look back, intended to identify key engineering changes for use by collectors. The terminology was picked up by collectors and made its way into nearly all collector books.

A different approach to nomenclature (favored by some of us) is to identify the guns the way they were advertised by the company at the time. The "changes" were never used by the company for any sort of public identification.

From the advent of the 1902 and 1905 models (starting in those years), S&W called the round butt model a Model of 1902, and the square butt model the Model of 1905 (square butt units were not even made before 1904). But just before WWI, they dropped that language and just called them the Military & Police model (with square or round butt).

 

[JP@AK]

Here's a 44 Hand Ejector. As you can see all of them were brass not blued.

Model19man
I think you are misunderstanding the question. The OP isn't asking about the stock mounting screw. He is talking about the thumbpiece (cylinder release).

 

[mojave30cal]

Thanks guys for the responses. My .38 M&P was made between
1915-1942. I misread the serial number. My bad.

I can't post a picture of the thumb latch nut screw as I got
a new computer last year, and when I load pictures into my
computer, I can't find them anywhere. What I really wanted
is if someone on the forum who has one of these M&P's in
my serial number range to check the nut screw and see if
the sides are smooth or serrated.

Again, thanks for the replies.

 

[DWalt]

Interesting. I recently purchased a couple of firearms from a dealer that specializes in these guns on Gunbroker and they described it as model 1905 38 special M&P 4th change. They are both mid 1920's.

I'm no expert, but seems that is what the S&W standard catalog refers to them as well. Now I am interested in when the 4 th change ended?

The previous posting tells the tale. There were indeed early K-frame revolvers actually cataloged by S&W as Model of 1902 (which had aound butt) and Model of 1905 (which had a square butt). Around 1915, S&W simply ceased cataloging that way, and called them the Military and Police Model, either round butt or square butt. The guns did not change, but the official factory name assigned to them did. Some collectors still use the original "Model of" nomenclature to describe K-frames made until WWII, even though that is not strictly correct. Regarding the use of "changes," that is pure unofficial collector-speak often used to designate certain evolutionary mechanical changes, and was never used by S&W. So in a way, a "4th change" never officially existed insofar as S&W was concerned, so it could not end. Somewhat later, in the late 1950s, S&W adopted a model numbering nomenclature system with dashes to name models and engineering changes. For example, the M&P became the Model 10 M&P, then the Model 10-1 M&P, Model 10-2 M&P, etc.

Presuming yours has a square butt, to be historically correct it should be described as a .38 Military and Police Model (square butt) because that was printed on the shipping box label.

 

[shovelhead]

My 4th Change 429XXX was shipped from S&W in January 1923 per my letter.

 

[mojave30cal]

Update: I went on Ebay to look for a S&W thumb latch nut. Most
that I saw for sale had serrated sides. However, one seller had
the thumb latch and nut which he said came off of a S&W 32-20
M&P ( Model of 1905, 4th. change), his words. The nut screw
slot was buggered, but it had smooth sides.

So, there was another seller that had NOS S&W smooth sided
thumb latch nuts, so I guess I'll get one and age it to match
the finish on my revolver.

 

[Targets Guy]

s/n 488870 shipped 10/1924. It was a 6" barrel, blue finish.


My 1924 M&P



and my 1926 M&P

 

[Alk8944]

Actually it is an M&P, not a Model of 1905. S&W dropped that terminology around 1915. I would probably not be too concerned about getting the right vintage replacement so long as it was blued. I think they are all pretty much identical.

If this is such a big thing to you maybe you should see what you can do about getting Supica and Nahas to change the SCSW so it no longer states that 4th change guns were manufactured from 1915 to 1940. And they have always been M&Ps from introduction in 1899!!! This is a poor distinction to try and make.

My pet peeve along this line is the insistence of calling the "Winchester Model" a .32-20 M&P!

M&Ps were /are .38 Special, and the Winchester Model were .32 Winchester Center Fire. Originally they were considered as separate models by S&W, and serial numbered in a separate series! If factory documents say differently I would like to see a reference!

A generally accepted principal in reference materials is that the first published are generally the most correct, and McHenry and Roper predates both Jinks and Supica and Nahas by many years. I would like to see when the factory began referring to both caliber guns as M&Ps! I understand advertising began getting muddied up before 1920. I am talking about original names in the 1899 to 1902 period!

 

[James K]

FWIW, here are two correct and original 1905s, one round butt from the 20s and one square butt from the 30s with serial #s 373XXX and 512XXX respectively. Both have smooth thumb latch release nuts.

 

[glowe]

. . . and here I thought the OP asked about a thumbpiece nut?????

They are available on gunpartscorp.com. Go to the website and work your way to S&W revolvers. Look for "Military & Police" and go to page 6. They have both smooth and serrated nuts.

 

[mojave30cal]

That's the info I'm looking for gents. Thanks!

 

[AC Man]

s/n 488870 shipped 10/1924. It was a 6" barrel, blue finish.


My 1924 M&P



and my 1926 M&P

Well thats odd, it is my understanding the M&P from 1920 to 1929 did not have medallions. Neither of mine do from mid 20's I would say yours was lost in the pipeline. Maybe an older model that got shipped late. Or non original grips? My serial # is 524688