.38 M&P Target 3rd or 4th Change?

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I just picked up a Model of 1905 and I'm curious how one determines if it is a 3rd or 4th Change? I do know from my research here that this language is collector terminology and not from the factory but I'm curious where this one falls?

SN is 150951. It has a 6.5" barrel and the serial numbers are all the same. Inset brass medallion stocks and the right panel numbers to the gun in pencil.

It's getting a Kroil soak right now but I will get some photos up later.


:::Edited to add::: The last patent date on the barrel is Feb 6 06
 
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It is almost certainly a 1905-3rd. It is in the low range for a 3rd, so I would not be shocked if it still has some features of a 1905-2nd. You can encounter "Changes" with mixed features. Tight yankees, dontchaknow. :D

You have become a serious enough student to need a Neal & Jinks!
 
Well, the Boss Man beat me to it------it's a third. I don't know if he knew it----or if he looked it up in a book. As for me, I cheat --------and looked it up in one of THE BOOKS---in this case, Smith & Wesson 1857-1945 by who THE Boss Man mentioned-----Neal & Jinks-----the first of several additional books you, and everyone else hereabouts should have in their library. And you have no one to blame besides yourself if you don't have it---or get it!

Here's what they had to say about your gun: 38 Hand Ejector Model of 1905 Third Change---------serial numbers 146900-241703. Then it goes on to tell you what the 3rd Change amounted to---and made everyone with this book look like they're smart. The fact of the matter is it might look like we're smart, but it's just that we can read----about every single gun there was within those serial numbers in this case-----and every other S&W that came to be between 1857 and 1945. Now when you get beyond that time period, you need another book!

As for me, I just counted my S&W books. There's 35 of them---AND what's in them makes me (and any other) who has them seem to be wicked smart, and the fact of the matter is we just know to read.

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, it took me all of 90 seconds to get up, hobble over to the book case, get THE book, and look wicked smart! Looks can be deceiving!
 
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Isn't reading what separates us from monkeys?!! :D Good thing too. I have one S&W book (Neal & Jinks) but soon I will add the Supica book too.

Read on Ralph!!
 
I know the SCSW 4th Edition stated that the 3rd change Targets didn't have 6.5" barrels, but mine does along with the OP's. Mine is S/N 150031. It lettered as a 6" which was disappointing since it's definitely the original barrel.

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Kroiled, Ren-Waxed, standing inspection. Not bad. Total with shipping, tax, and CC fee was $860.00

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And if you want to know if this piece of iron was a good buy at $860, it wasn't-------it was a GREAT buy!!!

Mine sold for $1450 during the recent liquidation of my collection. Well that's because mine was better, right? Not hardly----pretty much the same----all except for the odd-ball barrel length----which makes it better!

Ralph Tremaine
 
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And if you want to know if this piece of iron was a good buy at $860, it wasn't-------it was a GREAT buy!!!

Mine sold for $1450 during the recent liquidation of my collection. Well that's because mine was better, right? Not hardly----pretty much the same----all except for the odd-ball barrel length----which makes it better!

Ralph Tremaine


Awesome sir thanks for that insight.👍🏽

And I did order my first book!
 
Keith Brown was kind enough to offer me the opportunity to purchase some pre-war K frame Ropers in black walnut a little while back, and I think his shoes look lovely on this old girl.

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Dr. Jinks gave me a ship date of October 11, 1910 on this one.

The stocks definitely number to the gun but I thought that brass medallion stocks didn't come into service until 1911?
 
Craig:

That is a beauty!! I love it with either the gold medallioned grips OR the KB beauties. CONGRATS!!!

Neither of my two 1905 3rd Change Targets are nearly as nice as yours, but both of them came to me with 6.5" and gold medallioned grips:

154998 (shipped Aug 1910). The 6.5" barrel appears to be a replacement as it is numbered 165183. This well-used target gun also had some other work done, including a checkered trigger and a trigger stop mounted in the rear of trigger guard.:)








158135 (shipped Oct 1910).





Thanks for sharing the great pics of your beauty and once again, congrats!
 
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Likely that less than 5% were targets before 1930. I do not believe that 10% was ever achieved until after WWII. Roy once shared information that the company set a goal of 10% targets in the 1920s as well as actual target revolver production numbers from 1931 to 1935 that averaged 5.9%.

S&W set their sights on the military market starting in 1899 and so named their K frames as the Military Model until 1914 when the Military & Police Model was introduced. Early target shooters were using S&Ws and Colts for target shooting in those early years and shooters were satisfied with the New Model 3 and the 22 Single shot guns for competitive shooting that lasted into the early 1910s. I hope to write another article in the SWCA Journal to chronicle the growth of the K frame Target models from 1899 to 1910 soon. I believe that the early numbers will be quite surprising to many.

The change between the 2nd Change and 3rd Change was pretty much identified as the 3rd starting at 146,900. The large overlap occurs between the 1st and 2nd Changes but not so much for 3rd. Of course, every engineering change has a certain transition period as referenced by the size of inventory at the time of the change and the availability of old parts, so most every serial number range has some overlap.

As far as the 6 1/2" barrel is concerned, the old SWCA database shows examples of that length showing up in serial number range from 144000 to 160000 shipped in 1910 and 1911. Again, Roy and Bob did their best to cover changes in barrel lengths, but in reality, the 4", 5", 6", and 6 1/2" barrels exist in all Change numbers. Late shipped, special orders, and excess parts inventory were all likely the reason why all these Change overlaps with all these barrel lengths showing up. I also do not believe that any premium exists for barrel lengths not listed in "The Book" unless it is other than those four lengths.

Oh, not to forget my 1910-1911 targets. First is 150057 and second is 154974, shipped 1910 and 1911 respectively.

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Likely that less than 5% were targets before 1930. I do not believe that 10% was ever achieved until after WWII. Roy once shared a document that set a goal of 5% targets in the 1920s as well as a documented target production from 1931 to 1935 at an average of 5.9%.

S&W set their sights on the military market starting in 1899 and so named their K frames as the Military Model until 1914 when the Military & Police Model was introduced. Early target shooters were using S&Ws and Colts for target shooting in those early years and shooters were satisfied with the New Model 3 and the 22 Single shot guns for competitive shooting that lasted into the early 1910s. I hope to write another article in the SWCA Journal to chronicle the growth of the K frame Target models from 1899 to 1910 soon. I believe that the early numbers will be quite surprising to many.

The change between the 2nd Change and 3rd Change was pretty much identified as the 3rd starting at 146,900. The large overlap occurs between the 1st and 2nd Changes but not so much for 3rd. Of course, every engineering change has a certain transition period as referenced by the size of inventory at the time of the change and the availability of old parts, so most every serial number range has some overlap.

As far as the 6 1/2" barrel is concerned, the old SWCA database shows examples of that length showing up in serial number range from 144000 to 160000 shipped in 1910 and 1911. Again, Roy and Bob did their best to cover changes in barrel lengths, but in reality, the 4", 5", 6", and 6 1/2" barrels exist in all Change numbers. Late shipped, special orders, and excess parts inventory were all likely the reason why all these Change overlaps with all these barrel lengths showing up. I also do not believe that any premium exists for barrel lengths not listed in "The Book" unless it is other than those four lengths.

Oh, not to forget my 1910-1911 targets. First is 150057 and second is 154974, shipped 1910 and 1911 respectively.

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Gary I always benefit from your knowledge sir, thank you.
 
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