S&W 945 Fail to Extract

[whooper333]

I have a new to me S&W performance center 945 that I took to the range first time yesterday. When the pistol was purchased a while back it came from a bulls eye shooter. He had installed a scope mount that bolted on to the frame of the pistol. This scope mount required that the pistols rear sight be removed and a flat plate installed in its place to retain the firing pin block.

Some time ago I ordered a Wilson rear sight to replace the blocking plate once I removed the scope mount, which in my view destroyed the looks of this classic pistol. The problem with removing the scope mount was that 10 drilled and taped holes were left in the frame of the gun that looked hideous at best. I finally came up with some strips of titanium that I ball peen hammered for looks that were used as cover plates over the taped holes.

At the range yesterday my expections were that I would have to zero out the sights that were newly installed on the pistol. Instead I was dealing with a steady stream of failures to extract to the point that I got Thru a little over a half of a box of federal American eagle 230gr and gave up.

The extractor looks good and the spring behind it seems strong. During firing the pistol came with a second recoil spring which I had previously measured the wire diameter and found it to be the same as what was in the gun in wire size and length so it was merely a spare. I tried this spare spring with the same failure to extract fault occurring.

Does anyone know of this issue and what can be tried as a fix. On average I would say there are about 2 failures per magazine. Which is annoying to say the least.

 

[armorer951]

If the gun is clean and properly lubricated, perhaps the previous owner had substituted a lighter recoil spring(bullseye)....or the existing spring needs to be replaced. I would try replacing the recoil spring first. Very little effort here in terms of intervention. Be sure to use the spring specified by S&W.

Recoil spring 945

 

[whooper333]

thanks for the post and spring info reference. I did try both springs I received with the pistol while at the range. I will have to check the bag the spring was in to see if the number matches the reference information provided in the related post.

I will also measure the wire diameter and spring length and post it here so the info will be available. my intension at the range was to zero out the new sight, the jam problem took me by surprise. did not see it coming, thought the pistol was a proven out design especially after viewing mr s&w jm video on how reliable the pistol is feeding empty .45 cases. proves what does he know, he is a shooter. anyhow reliable was not how I would describe this pistol I shot.

it was at the end of a long range day mostly rifle. so it was suppose to be a simple zero out and done. turned into a jam session and the music playing was not good. you think you got it done and it is always something I guess.

 

[whooper333]

This morning I measured the springs received with the 945-1 when purchased, this is the info I have.

The recoil spring part bag from smith had a number of #20071 on the bag. I received the gun with one spare spring. Both springs measure the same. The spring wire diameter is .043 inch dia. The od of the spring coils are .402 inch, the length of the recoil spring nominal 6.0 to 6-1/8 inches long. The guide rod has a diameter of .291 od with a length of the spring area of 4-1/4 long, the guide rod total length is 4-11/16” long.

I will call smith to get clarification on 24298 vs 20071 spring part numbers, order 2 recoil springs as well as 2 extractor springs and see where this goes. Thanks

 

[whooper333]

hello ironhorse1

yep you are correct fail to extract multiple times per magazine takes all the fun out of shooting.

thanks for the info on the chamber, I think the chamber is sweeky clean but I will double check that.

my view on a stronger recoil spring is that it is possible on my pistol that the action is going into full lockup allowing the gun to fire but the extra red hair the action is not going forward is preventing the extractor from hooking around the case lip. without the extractor hooked around the case lip the next cycle comes back without extracting the case and tries to push in the next live round. when the gun jams this is how I find it.

I think if it was a stuck case the case lip would show evidence of being torn away by the extractor. I don't see any of that, I just see a case left in the chamber and the new round trying to come in. so I am guessing that the extractor never engaged the case.

I think the suggestion that has been made about replacing the recoil spring with a S&W spec spring is in regard to making sure the slide drives all the way forward allowing the extractor to fully engage around the lip of the case. do you have the part number of the midway usa 945 extra power recoil spring that you mention?

 

[Bruce51]

Well I think we have a basic misunderstanding about how the extractor works.

The case rim feeds up under the hook from the magazine. It does not hook over the case rim going into battery.

I've had my autos a long time and know what works and the problems of FTE that have occured.

Amazingly when firing mild loads with 185 grain bullets I never have a FTE.

I'm still fine tuning some different loads but will relate a problem from the past.

I had a lot of WW white box from 2008 that the brass tarnished from mild to heavy. I took three S&W autos out to shoot it up .

The 945 FTE at 150 rounds. The 745 went 200 rounds and the 645 also went 200 rounds.

They all needed a good cleaning afterwards.

BTW I have been here since 2006 under a previous but possibly controversial username in today's world.

I hope that you can make the 945 work for you without FTE.

 

[whooper333]

got it, so when the slide is all the way back the mag spring pushes the new round up against the face of the breach and under the extractor hook, then all goes into battery that way.

why do you suppose I don't see any evidence of the extractor bypass on the rim of the case that is left in the chamber? thus far all the cases that have been left in the chamber have come out by dropping the mag then letting the slide come forward and hand cycling the slide back ant out comes the case.

next time out if the spring is not replaced yet I will have to pay close attention on each shot to what is happening at the extractor.

last time out it was end of day and I was just trying to zero out the sights. then along comes this mixed bag. thanks for the help so far. that's what the guy said when he jumped off at the 90th story, on the way down he was heard saying so far so good.

 

[Bruce51]

Just a word or two about stuck cases. If the case is stuck poke it out with a rod.

You may end up breaking the hook if you use the slide to extract the stuck case.

AFAIK there is no case marks left when the extractor bounces off of the case.

If it did not release the extractor would break and then it would need a trip to S&W.

Glad to help.

 

[whooper333]

Ironhorse thanks for the share, Good info to know. I called smith today, they said the gun has been out of production for several years, also good information to know, I jest. They said extractor and recoil springs are not available, suggested contacting a merchant called mike at gun parts, he is not available.

The point about the extractor hook being broken off, that would be bad. Although when doing a basic sight in procedure and ambushed by a repeated failure to extract I found I tend to stay focused on the task and loose sight of the fact that I am being ambushed.

Back to your extractor expertise of the 945, sounds like you are saying in this case the extractor is fully engaged as the round goes into battery, then after firing as the slide moves rearward the extractor hook finds the resistance of the case in battery to exceed the extractors ability to remain engaged. So the extractor simply disengages the case without leaving any indication on the case rim inner lip that this has taken place. Then as I remove the magazine on the firing line the slide goes closed engaging the extractor on the case lip again. Then when the slide is pulled back to lock the slide open, the extractor finds the muscle to pull the spent case out of the chamber.

The extractor not fully engaging story sounded much simpler. In your analogy I don’t understand how a stronger slide recoil spring solves the issue of the extractor deciding that it wants to disengage the case lip? It makes sense that a stronger extractor spring would solve it but the recoil spring seems a little more distant.

I have a zastava m76, when it finds a stuck case the extractor in it rips the lip off the steel 8mm case, then as you say a wooden dowel rod is used to extract the stuck case out of the chamber. Obviously the Romanians believe in stout extractors. I have many rounds thru the m76, so I know the drill. On the 945 I have only a half of box thru it, with no springs in sight close attention needs to be paid at next range visit, I will bring awooden dowel rod.

 

[Sevens]

I cannot be 100% certain, however, I would bet a dozen donuts and frosty beer to chase them that a 945 extractor is exactly the same part as a 4506 extractor with the exception of color. That means it would likely be the same as a 4566 too, and a 645/745, et all. Literally dozens of models across decades and hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of examples produced and sold. The most simple argument is that S&W builds guns and to build guns, they need parts, and having parts commonality makes tremendous fiscal sense, and they have been doing this for more than a century. Again, I am not certain, but I would be half shocked if the 945 extractor was a part exclusive to only the 945.

The extractor spring is available in stock, right now, at Midway USA.

I would clean every possible crevice relating to the extractor and I would do this with the extractor carefully removed. I would also replace that extractor spring with a new one from Midway. If the extractor itself doesn't look chipped or fractured or missing it's hook, I would attempt to re-use that same extractor before worrying about finding a replacement.

Drive the extractor pin downward from the top of the slide so that it exits on the bottom of the slide (obviously, have the slide off the frame before you do this)

Numrich deals in new old stock and used parts, I would look there and at Brownell's. I would avoid S&W unless I hit dead ends. --IF-- forced to call the children answering phones at S&W, I would ask them to please ship me a 4506 extractor and if they want the SN of the gun, I would Google up a picture of an existing 4506 serial number and lie to them. They will get all confused if you start talking about lesser known models. There is a fair chance that the first 4 people you talk to on the phone have never held a 4506 in their hands and have never even seen a picture of a 945, let alone shot, handled or *gulped* worked on one.

 

[armorer951]

The casing is not under the control of the extractor during the feeding cycle until it emerges from the magazine fully, and the rim of the casing begins moving up to it's position between the breechface and the hook angle (space provided) on the extractor. This action is not completed fully until the chamber end of the barrel cams up the approx 1.5° on the barrel foot/slide release pin interface just prior to the slide coming fully into battery.

Many, but not all failures during the extraction phase occur due to improper recoil spring tension exerted by the mainspring (hammer) and recoil springs. When the mainspring or the recoil spring are weak or have been altered, the slide comes out of battery and moves backward at a faster rate. Add in the variables of case rim diameter and thickness, dirt and debris, and a weak or compromised extractor spring or damaged extractor, and there will often be all kinds of issues that are difficult to diagnose.

If you can find out the S&W part number of the extractor spring you need let me know, I may have one. Also, since this is a blind hole behind this particular spring, you could use a shim or spacer to increase tension there if you determine more tension if needed. (and there are no replacements available)

Proper fitting of a new extractor will require flag and bar gages, and a dial force gage to adjust tension.

Also, in the event there are no factory springs available, Wolff has 10 pound extractor springs for the 645 and 745 models listed on their web site. (according to Wolff, the factory spring is 9 pounds)
I have no idea if these are usable in your 945 model, but as Sevens has said above, the springs are very likely the same.

https://www.gunsprings.com/SMITH & WESSON/NUMBERED SERIES/cID1/mID58/dID261#901

 

[whooper333]

thanks sevens and armorer for the input. this info makes sense, although I must admit I am getting a little hungry reading it.

it is funny my phone experience with smith today was just as sevens stated. I think it was 3 phone calls, the first smith rep was a female. I spent a lot of the time listening to big band music, then she came back and said let me check and see if these parts are in stock. I thought whoa I struck gold. then the phone went into the constant ring for the next 10 mins until I gave up and redialed. the second guy said nah the gun has been out of production for a while and smith does not support it.(so two more opposite answers could not have been imagined) he recommended trying mike at gun parts. mike apparently is a former S&W employee. when you call mikes number a recorder answers saying "I'll be back". the third guy said try brownells or midway. I said to him there is a place in south Dakota( I was trying to remember the name numrich because I was have a senior moment and could not recall it for my life, thank you sevens). his reply was jacks guns, I said south Dakota, the reply was yeh, jacks guns.

a little self humor, you cant make this stuff up. anyhow as you all can probably attest the only reason I stepped into a 945 was that I was a smith third gen fan in the autos. the whole jeff cooper, florida gun fight, smith fbi 1066, and thus the large heavy duty autos smith was making in the day that tricked down to the nines. it was a good design. sevens I am sure you are correct the springs and parts from those guns are in the 945. I have a couple of 45xx in the collection so I will have to do some digging to see what is there.

before I go senior again, the third S&W customer service person did give me the number to the extractor spring. his words were "if I am reading this correctly", I wrote the number down I will post it tomorrow. I asked how about the recoil spring number. he stated there is no number listed. not a lot of confidence in these folks.

I will check with midway, and what I might have. hopefully there might be a recoil spring in my stuff from a third gen S&W 45. armorer, if I strike out I may take you up on the possibility of a extractor spring. regards

 

[Bruce51]

I have an extra 745 extractor spring and it is not the same length as the 945 spring.

When I had the extractor out I cut a small shim out of thin plastic to place under the spring. The extractor was in perfect condition and I believe it was the same as the 745.

Then the covid hit and I have not had a chance to test fire it yet.

As stated above lock time is a fine balance of load,spring weight and tension.

The heavier springs will slow the slide recoil allowing for the case to relax hopefully making for easier extraction.

A heavier recoil spring will also protect the frame and speed up lock time going into battery.

I've never run the lighter spring and now use the replacement from Midway. #227209

 

[Bruce51]

The extractor pin takes a firm hit or two or three or four to remove.

A properly fitted punch with the end recessed to fit over the pin is a must.

I made one to fit using a Dremel with a small diamond ball tipped tool.

A flat ended punch will just bounce off and peen the area around the pin.

FWIW

 

[whooper333]

ok, thanks to you all i have parts on order from both midway an wolff gunspring. there is a variety of springs coming based on all the input received. should be able to spring tune this thing like a rolex.

in case it is needed for whatever it is worth, david at S&W customer service states the smith number for the 945-1 extractor spring is 060170000. his words were "if i am reading this correctly" so confidence is partly cloudy.

i took photos side by side of 945 and 3rd gen 45 so you can judge the extractor interchange ability.

 

[armorer951]

Part number 06017 is the same spring as the S&W parts book lists for the full sized .45.....like the 645, 745, 4505, 4506, 4526, 4546, etc.

 

[Bruce51]

As a followup to the post by armorer951 I went to the Gunparts website and looked at the ejector spring.

The 745 spring shown #15 329140 has five coils the same as my 945-1.

The spring that I removed from a 745 slide only has four coils .

I really don't know why my slide had a much shorter spring but I'm definitely ordering several for my three pistols as replacements.

irh

 

[armorer951]

Just for future reference, the Gunparts (Numrich) website parts numbers are not S&W OEM numbers.

Also, Midway and Brownells do list the OEM numbers on their parts list page.

 

[whooper333]

So I did not leave numrich out of the picture, last night I place a order for some of their springs. While doing so in regard to the recoil spring I noticed they listed the 745 with a 6.75” recoil spring factory weight. Reduced weight was 6”. When I looked at the 1006 recoil spring it was listed at 8”.

I started to think in regards to the pistols related and discussed here all recoil springs are equal in wire size and number of turns per inch, the only difference in them are their lengths. The springs that came with my 945 are 6”. The 6.75” was out of stock so I ordered the 1006 8” spring. Figured I could snip off a few coils if needed. At the least I will have plenty of springs to compare once all this stuff shows up.

To meet the free shipping minimum numrich has some rear sights on sale for the 3rd gen if anyone has the need.

On a different note and one I could use some advise on. This morning I cleaned the barrel to the 945-1 really well. It had not been cleaned since the range day and I thought I would like to inspect the chamber of the barrel as has been discussed in this thread. I noticed looking from the safe end from the 8oclock to the 4oclock chamber positions a roughness to the chamber that is not noticed at the bottom of the chamber.

This roughness could be as ironhorse explained a contributing factor for the FTE. As the case is expanded a little extra grip on the radial rings I am seeing with 5x magnification, then as the case contracts during the mag drop the case then comes out no problem.

I have a gauge pin set so I checked the chamber size, the chamber is tapered down towards the muzzle and at the ridge where the case seats head space a .474” gauge pin slips. The .475 just starts to bind at that point.

I have hard felt buffs that can fit the chamber, a felt buff, some simmi-chrome or rouge could knock the tops off the radial ridges left by the chamber reamer from the 4-8 o’clock locations

I am torn between doing something about the ridges, or, taking it slow and see where the springs take this. I guess the machining ridges irritate me I would have liked to see a honed type finish on a gun of this level.

What do you all think, take it slow or knock the tops of the ridges off?

 

[Sevens]

Haha well given the tools and nomenclature, it seems like you are in my element... and -FAR- out of mine! I wouldn’t do that and nor would I allow it to be done before all the extractor duties have been done.