S&W 945 Fail to Extract

whooper333

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Had a thread running under the ammo title on my new to me(or not so new anymore to me) s&w 945. My first time to the range had on average 2 fte per mag. After about 4 mags of this I gave up. Turned to the s&w forum community and the advise I receive was first make sure it is clean and the extractor is not damaged. second get some new recoils springs, it is the easiest thing to do and try that. Third if that fails try a new extractor spring.

Well I am at number three now. On my second range visit I had the wolf tuning recoil spring pack #15 thru #20 and the midway 8" long. I think the midway and the wolf #18 had the least fte but neither was acceptable.

This morning I finally got to cleaning the gun and removed the extractor. Took some photos to post but having trouble with upload. I don't see anything unusual. I will have to look thru what I purchased when I got the recoil springs but I did purchase new extractor springs I think from midway and numrich.

Does any one know if it is worth trying to place shims under the extractor spring during reassembly. I have some .010 ss shim stock that I could stamp out some round shims. I would like to know is it worth trying the shims with a new spring?
 

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I'm assuming you have ruled out ammo as the issue? Can you describe the malfunction in more detail please......for instance, does "fte" mean the casing is left behind in the chamber or it is not being ejected properly? Does the ejector itself look ok, with no damage to the profile? Excuse my ignorance, but is this a Commander length barrel and slide? If so, you may need a slightly higher rated recoil spring.

It is possible to shim the extractor, if you feel the tension is inadequate, even with the new replacement spring.
 
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Looks like the full size model to me sir, judging by the adjustable rear... as far as the failure to extract.... its rather odd that the gun isent working, I know there are odd ducks out, this is just wildy strange that a PC gun like this is having issues... maybe try loading a full mag of empty cases and running the slide if it chambers and extracts the cases then shes good there... you can still find Factory recoil springs... maybe a shooter error, respectfull speculations sir.


EDIT.. Take a live round WITH THE BARREL OUT OF THE GUN! and drop in the chamber, see if it drops in and out nice n smooth could be a chamber issue..
 
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I have, in certain circumstances, placed a shim under the extractor spring and gotten positive results.

If you do this and it puts too much tension on your extractor I will predict that you may experience feeding issues, but it's not hard to pull it back out.

My first move (at this point) would be the new extractor spring. If no joy, then sure, try shimming. After that, try a new extractor. I am not certain but it would only make sense if the extractor is the same part that S&W used in all the .45cal 3rd Gens and in the 1911's too, and still currently used.

To close this post... boy, there's well over a dozen 945's across all of my best buddies and I'm telling NO LIES WHATSOEVER, nobody's 945 pistols are "fail to" anything other than X-ring and ear to ear grins. These pistols are undervalued and mind-blowing fantastic.

I just got back from sending 100 through one of my 945's.
 
What's the ejector look like? is the tip broken off? It's not impossible for a broken ejector to produce an occasional stoppage that might appear to be a failure-to-react to someone not that familiar with the 3rd gen guns. Just a thought.

They used to offer 3 extractor springs for the 3rg gen .45/10's, a Standard, Heavier than Standard and an Extra Heavy (than Standard). Just a couple years ago I managed to get someone at the factory to look around and get me some of the last "current" springs for the .45/10's, to "top off" my parts kits for these obsolete guns, and they sent me 2 types of springs (instead of 3). I presume they were Standard and Heavier, but the guy who sent them to me was the original guy who used to run Pistol Repair for 3rd gen's in Springfield (now retired), so if that's what he thought I ought I needed, I trusted him.

Measuring the tension is done using a Wagner Force FDK 20 Dial Gauge, with the appropriate hooked extension pulling the extractor hook outward, and the tension measured at initial deflection (extractor moves). The recommended tension range was 5 - 6 1/2 lbs. The front of the slide is usually mounted in a padded vise, so the dial's hook can pull on the extractor hook.


(Ignore the dial reading, as I was measuring another gun.)


Maybe you can find a machinist or gun smith who owns that model dial (with the appropriate screw-in extension to capture the extractor hook), because otherwise it's about a $150 tool that's only needed to service/repair of 34d gen's for extractor spring tension replacement and testing, which doesn't come along all that often.
 
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So after closer observation to your pictures I can see the extractor looks a bit worn on the outside that "silver line" where the black has worn off, should not be there. that is from someone dropping a live round In the chamber which should not be done in the Smith and Wesson 3rd semi autos it should always be loaded from the mag, It very well could be you have an extractor issue As the extractor "claw" looks very well broken or worn...
 

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In looking again, I would love to see a closer full res picture but I'm thinking that Erocksmash has a good eye. Unless it is photo trickery, it kind of does look like the tip end of the extractor has been smacked around.

I'd be looking for an extractor too.
 
So after closer observation to your pictures I can see the extractor looks a bit worn on the outside that "silver line" where the black has worn off, should not be there. that is from someone dropping a live round In the chamber which should not be done in the Smith and Wesson 3rd semi autos it should always be loaded from the mag, It very well could be you have an extractor issue As the extractor "claw" looks very well broken or worn...

That caught my initial attention, too. However, it might also be a normal artifact resulting from hot gasses blowing back around the case.

My original 4513TSW (6rd cutaway grip frame) has the same "marking", and I don't release the slide & extractor to slam forward on a round already in the chamber. :)

If you were to look at the circular outline around the case base on a breech face, and the "line" on the extractor shoulder, you'd probably see the artifact "line" follows the same circular line. Gas does blow back around the case walls, and the extractor hook reaches into the base to a degree, exposing that part of the front of the shoulder to any gas fouling bleeding out of the chamber.

It's just less noticeable on a stainless steel extractor.
 
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i will try to get some better photos of the extractor. I thought that it looked ok. but as I said the gun is new to me. I have some imada force gauges that I can check the pull of the extractor at first movement. perhaps a string at the tip of the extractor hook will suffice instead of the hook V-shape tip on the gauge in the posted photo.

the fte are with federal 230gr rn fmj American eagle, the cases are left in the chamber and the slide is coming forward on the next round. it ends up with the live round nose of the bullet jammed against the spent case primer that is left in the chamber and the breach face against the new round back end.

I tried some freedom munitions same 230gr rn fmj and the results were a little worse in the number of fte. I then tried freedom munitions 200gr hp and got some stove piping with the midway 8" recoil spring. don't know what was going on there?

the current extractor spring has a hint of red paint on it if that means anything to someone. I will go thru the box of new springs I got to see what new extractor springs I purchased for replacement.

as for wear on this extractor I hope that is not the case because I did not find a replacement extractor for the 945. it may be true that all 45cal. 3rd gens have the same extractor but at my last call to S&W customer service the answer was the gun has not been made in a while and S&W does not support parts. I think the kid said try jacks guns for parts, whatever that means.

as for the buddy's with the 945's that have a grin e-e I will get in line and hope that I make it to the counter. maybe with the help here I can.
 
I remember being told by someone at S&W that they'd sold a fair amount of their 3rd gen pistol parts to Jack First, but you'd have to call to see if they still have them (aren't listed on general web page).

About us – Jack First Inc.

Dunno what extractor springs the PC used in their 945's, but the standard 3rd gen .45 extractor spring is plain unpainted steel, and the last new ones I was sent that were "extra" were painted blue.

I'd like to see a pic of the ejector, just standing proud above the frame (sans slide), to see if it's an old or revised style, and to see if the tip is intact (old styles could develop a stress riser and break off over time).

Ordinarily, if an extractor spring is too lightly tensioned, it can sometimes fail to stay held against the case rim during a critical moment in the effects of the recoil impulse (when the barrel separates from the slide). Someone at the factory once called this a critical "moment of mass", because the "mass" of the pivoting extractor head, pushed against the case rim, has to be prevented from being pushed away from the case (recoil force acting on it), and the spring needs to counter this force. If it doesn't, the hook bounces out and away from the case rim, and the empty case may stay in the chamber.

I can't speak to anything used to measure the spring tension other than the dial gauge recommended and sold to armorers by S&W training. I'm not a machinist or gunsmith, just a factory-trained armorer. You might contact forum member BMCM, as he's better equipped and experienced as a machinist.

Also, as I was once told by the good folks at Wolff Gunsprings, when I asked why their "tension ratings" for their S&W extractor springs were listed with different ratings than what we were given by the factory, some companies might measure "tension" differently, using different equipment and methods.

If you can source your factory extractor springs by S&W factory parts numbers, these are the numbers of the springs listed in the .45/10 3rd gen's:
Standard - #10202
Heavier than Standard - #23563
Extra Heavy - #23433

(The complete part numbers often had 4 zero's at the end, so #10202 would be #102020000)

Since the people who originally built the 945's have retired, it's not surprising that someone at general customer service might say they don't support them anymore. You could try calling and ask to be connected to the PC, itself, but I have no idea if anyone working there at present was there for the heyday of the PC and their hand-built pistols. (John and Vito are retired.) It would be a roll of the dice whether there were even any of the older parts used in those guns remaining in some bin, desk drawer or cubby hole.
 
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fastbolt I gotta say you had me on the mat I was seeing stars and the ref was counting.

then on about the 4th read I came up with this analogy. I am told in performance cars they use two springs on the intake and exhaust valves because at certain speeds the springs go into resonance and become wet noodles. being that each valve has a second spring the opposite spring maintains tension being of different diameter. by doing this valve float is prevented.

sounds like the guys at S&WPC stated the same thing at the BANG the shake rattle and roll can send a weak extractor spring into resonance and vola a wet noodle or a stuck case. it might not happen on every shot but often enough.

between this discussion and the discussion we had a month ago about recoil springs, hammer springs creating timing of the action allowing the spent case to constrict in the chamber before the action starts back, it sound like the ear to ear smile that was talked about is earned not given.

tomorrow I will try to get some photos of the ejector, a better shot of the extractor and see what springs I have in the box that I purchased a month ago. let me know if I am cooking with gas here on my way to earning my merit badge, or if I am still rubbing two sticks together.

on another note instead of shims has anyone tried using a sliced out section of oring inside the spring? kinda like two springs on a intake valve?
 
I measured the extractor springs I have on hand;

Original In the pistol was, wire size=.033",length=.305",
Od =.1915", coils=5

Wolf #10lb #27129 wire=.0295", length=.325",od =.179"
Coil=4

Numrich r13811,s&w#102020000 wire=.031", length=.304"
Od =.1935", coil=4

Midway #421788 072020. Wire=.031", length=.296"
Od =.193", coil=4

I took more photos, there is some wear in the slide extractor grove just above the hook. It can be felt with the tip of a stick. (Photo 4) Maybe .002 felt. As for springs the original has the most coils and the thickest wire. The next best choice would be a toss up between the numrich and the midway with .031 and 4 coils. As someone mentioned I am not sure where wolf spring gets their data but they list #271129 as a #10lb extra power, it has the smallest wire @.029 and the smallest [email protected]. Go figure?

Looking at the numbers seems like taking the original spring placing a .125 pin inside of for support and giving it a stretch so it was .325" long would make it have the highest extractor hook force with the most spring coils.

At close magnified inspection of the extractor hook, there was a black residue where the hook locks on the case. Almost looked like caked on graphite power. It has been cleaned off.

I am thinking the high spots on the wear in the slide extractor groove just above the hook should be hit with a hard Arkansas stone. I am thinking if the high spots are gone they will not interfere with the hook operation.
 

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I don't think I'd have the cajones to modify the extractor until I had replacements in hand.

But it also occurs to me that you are doing very detailed work in this project and handling it more clinically and professionally than I would, so at this point I'm just rooting you on and hoping for a great conclusion! :D
 
I called jack first in South Dakota this morning to find out about a new extractor, no answer, maybe they are close for veteran's day.

Looking at what I thought was wear in the slide ejector slot from a distance, turns out to be not wear at all. From a distance I realized the shape of the wear matches the machining in the slide in that area.

It turns out that what I am looking at is a screw up by S&WPC machining. When they cut the opening the end mill was about .002" lower than it should have been and the end mill cut the top of the ejector slot in that area. So it's not wear it's a s&wpc screwup. (Wonder if they will warranty it, yes good luck with that.)

I am just going to make sure there is no high spots to interfere with the extractor operation, try the numrich or midway spring and see what happens. If that is a nogo maybe try to stretch out the original spring .020" and try it again. I guess the last choice will be the wolf being that it is .013" smaller in diameter than the rest and has the smallest size wire.

I have a few photos of the screwup, if you follow the shapes a endmill coming down in that area aligns perfectly. Also have some shots of the ejector for fast bolt.

I might even give the o-ring thought a try if the springs fail. I suppose before I go there I should check into hammer springs since it is a combo of hammer and recoil springs that control slide cycle timing.

Like I said I am new to the 945, I have other smith 3rd gen's. Never noticed a problem with them like this. Is this gun really so finely tuned that if one thing get out of kilter the whole thing falls apart?
 

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If I am seeing what I think I am seeing and what I think you are describing, I can't quite understand why that screw-up with the end mill would affect function.

I do have a VERY STRONG opinion on this however:
So it's not wear it's a s&wpc screwup. (Wonder if they will warranty it, yes good luck with that.)
You were likely making a joke or tossing sarcasm here, but let's be clear for a minute...

There is nobody working at Smith & Wesson currently that truly knows these pistols. If I am mistaken on that and someone wishes to take this as a personal insult, prove it to me and you'll have all my apologies.

There's a slew of folks working there now that wouldn't recognize a 5906 if you blurred out the S&W logo. I've met factory reps (TEN YEARS AGO) that had no idea that S&W ever made a 10mm semiautomatic. not joking. You can get different answers to simple questions on out of production guns on consecutive days.

There is nobody at the S&W plant that is as qualified as you, Fastbolt and BMCM to handle questions and issues with a S&W Performance Center 945 pistol. And if it isn't clear, let it be crystal clear -- the Performance Center does not exist and has not existed for years. Years. Literally not of this Earth.

I wouldn't send this to AutoZone for repairs, I wouldn't send this to Taurus USA for repairs and I surely would never consider sending this pistol to Smith & Wesson in 2020 for repairs.

No way.
 
Did you ever explain what type of FTEs you were having, stovepipes, leaving the case in the barrel chamber or the casing laying on top of the mag. Has the extractor been gauged, maybe the last owner messed with it and you just need a new extractor fit properly. I would think all that area breechface, extractor, measurement would be the same as 4506, but I dont know that. S/W didnt cover the P/C guns in their armory schools and Ive been lucky and never had an issue with any of mine. Also the marking on the front (end) of the extractor, may indicate that it is striking the shell casing above the rim during extraction, knocking the case back into the chamber. We were taught to look at that in 1911 schools,extractor too long, check the fired brass for markings in the beveled spot in front of the rims. Also what type ammo might eliminate any questions about ammo being the problem, does it happen with different ammos. We had to double spring alot or 9mm extractors years ago in the S/W auto early days. I may have a few of those laying around if thats the issue. Without gauging the extractor to start with its hard to tell. I dont know if S/W, especially that model is meant to have a semi loose fit extractor like a 1911, or tighter. Just some thoughts , hard to figure without looking at the gun. Good luck.
 
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I don't think the ledge or anomaly you are seeing in the top of the extractor slot would negatively effect function of the extractor itself. You may be able to check/verify this by carefully cycling some sized, empty casings. (hope I'm looking properly at what you are referring to)

In terms of the extractor spring tension, if you feel it is inadequate and want to experiment with a heavier configuration, it would be better to carefully shim under a new replacement spring, or even the original spring that you found in the gun, rather than stretching the spring to make it "longer". This is purely an opinion based on my experience with coil springs.

The cutaway shape on the bottom of the ejector looks curved like the newer style ones, vs the "squared corner" of the older design. I'm not familiar with the 945 profile at the contact point, so I can't comment on how that looks in terms of length and angle. I believe you indicated that the spent casings are being left behind in the chamber, so this (ejection) would not be a concern.
 
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