S&W BNP Revolver Information

[JKober66]

I recently purchased a S&W Revolver from an older gentleman that said he got it in the 60's. It has BNP .38" .767" 31/2 tons markings on the barrel and BNP on the cylinders with a serial number of V 469###. It also has US PROPERTY G.H.D. on the frame above the cylinder. I bought it thinking it was a .38Special model 10 but ya I think that is wrong. The Firearms officer asked if there was a letter on the frame when the cylinder opened but it doesn't just an & sign with a number below it. It had .380 ammo with it which fired ok. .38special will not go into the cylinder as there is a rim inside the cylinder stopping it from accepting a ..38special round. Should it be using .380 or is it made for something else like .38S&W? I don't want to damage it and if I can get it bore out for .38special I will do that but kinda at a loss as to exactly what I have here? Anyone know what the heck I have here and info would be appreciated greatly... I was going to resell it but again kinda hard to list it when I don't exactly know what I have here. Thanks...

 

[murphydog]

Welcome! You have a WW II Victory in .38/200, also known as .38 S & W. It is not chambered for .380 Auto (9 X 18 mm).

If it is in original spec from the factory, these will have 5" barrels, smooth walnut stocks and a dark gray finish. It was proof tested and stamped for commercial sale, likely in the 1950s. .38" is the diameter, .767" is the case length for .38 S & W, and 3 1/2 tons the proof load pressure (a whopping 7840 psi). Here are a few posts for your perusal:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/search...hnk&cof=FORID:9&q=British+Victory+Model&sa=Go

Hope this is helpful.

 

[DWalt]

V 469xxx would date its shipment to about late 1943-early 1944. The proof markings you see were performed by the British proof house at Birmingham after WWII, when these were surplussed out and released for sale. British law required proofing for sale to civilians. The revolver was (and apparently still is) chambered for the .38 S&W cartridge, which the British called the .380 Revolver, Mk2 cartridge which used a 178 grain jacketed bullet. There was also a .380 Revolver Mk1 cartridge which used a 200 grain lead bullet.

This was one of the official British Service Revolvers (BSR) in use during WWII and for some time afterward. It is often called the Victory .38/200 or sometimes the K-200. The British called it the Pistol, Revolver, Smith and Wesson, No. 2. It is essentially the prewar S&W Military and Police (M&P) Model revolver chambered in .38 S&W, and simplified for wartime mass production. You are fortunate that it does not seem to have been re-chambered for the .38 Special cartridge, which would have diminished its value significantly.

 

[deadin]

It had .380 ammo with it which fired ok.

Those had to be British .380 Revolver cartridges as described by Dwalt. There is no way a .380 Auto could be fired in a 38 S&W (.380 Revolver) chamber. They just fall in to below the chamber mouth.

Well, I suppose you might be able to get one to go off by pointing the gun straight up and pulling the trigger (or have a really long firing pin....) In either case it might just do a quick disassemble of the cylinder as .380 Auto is loaded to a much higher pressure than the gun is intended for.

 

[Art Doc]

Not the best shooter for a man who buys his ammo. The 38 S&W (not 38 Special) is hard to find and pricey. I suggest you sell it and buy a gun in 38 Special to shoot. Please don't butcher it by reaming it. They don't work well when this is done. Just get another gun.

 

[glowe]

I certainly hope you were not shooting .380 Auto, since SAAMI chamber pressures are over 20,000 psi. When the British stamped 3 1/2 ton pressure rated, that means the gun passed a proof load test of 3.5 Long tons per square inch. I could be mistaken, but I believe that equates to 7714 psi?

 

[DWalt]

Regarding pressure, the Victories will take a lot more than 3-1/2 tons, unlike the Enfields. I have read stories regarding how the British would mash rims of captured German 9mm cartridges to keep them from falling into the chambers and fire them in Victories when necessary.

 

[glowe]

It does not make sense that numbers should be that low. SAAMI pressure specs for 38 S&W is 14,500 psi. That actually calculates to 6.25 tons per square inch, so maybe I am missing something????

 

[Texas Star]

What is this Firearms Officer? Are you in Canada or somewhere like that? If so, .38-200 ammo may be more available than in the USA.

Do NOT drill out the chambers for .38 Special. The original ctg. is a little fatter than is .38 Spcl and the fired cases may bulge or crack on firing.

 

[DWalt]

It does not make sense that numbers should be that low. SAAMI pressure specs for 38 S&W is 14,500 psi. That actually calculates to 6.25 tons per square inch, so maybe I am missing something????

I agree, but remember, the SAAMI peak chamber pressure is a maximum, not an actual. I believe the actual factory .38 S&W loads have a peak chamber pressure around 7000 psi, possibly less, as they sort of simulate the old black powder loads. And I don't think the ballistics of the Mk1 and Mk2 loads were much different. Who knows what the British proof house standards were back then, probably something based on the obsolete copper crusher method, as modern piezo pressure gauges weren't invented yet. In any event, the WWII Victories should have been easily able to handle much higher chamber pressures than 3-1/2 tons/sq. in.

 

[2152hq]

The 3 1/2 ton /sq in marking is the service pressure for the load the firearm is chambered for,,not the psi of the proof load the arm withstood during proofing.

It was a pip-squeek of a load for sure, making there change over to the 200gr bullet all that more important in an attempt to gain some knock down effect.

Commonly called .380 Revolver in England and the rest of the Commonwealth and so marked on Military packaged rounds.

Question from me,,would a Brit Victory originally in 38S&W have been marked with 'US Property GHD' on the frame?
I'm no collector,,just wondering how that all fits together.

 

[DWalt]

"Question from me,,would a Brit Victory originally in 38S&W have been marked with 'US Property GHD' on the frame?"

Simple. Legally, they were U. S. Property, just on loan to the British Commonwealth. That's what the Lend-Lease Act of 1941 provided for. GHD was (Col) Guy H. Drewry, Commander of the U. S. Army Ordnance District at Hartford, CT. Army Ordnance handled government production contracts with S&W and other contractors for various weapons and components.

"It was a pip-squeek of a load for sure, making their change over to the 200gr bullet all that more important in an attempt to gain some knock down effect."

You have it backward. The .380 Revolver, Mk1 service cartridge had a 200 grain lead bullet, and was used prior to WWII. The later Mk2 round had a 178 grain FMJ bullet, adopted because the lead bullet was illegal under the protocols of the Hague Convention as being presumed inhumane, causing unnecesary suffering, because it could expand.

 

[glowe]

The 3 1/2 ton /sq in marking is the service pressure for the load the firearm is chambered for,,not the psi of the proof load the arm withstood during proofing . . .

Interesting, since I always thought BNP stood for British Nitro Proof and all these guns were tested at a British Proof House?? I guess that during the war, all the proof houses had time to do was stamp the accepted ammo pressures on the gun and never actually proof tested them.

 

[murphydog]

These received all the stampings after the war; I recall reading somewhere the majority of these came out of Birmingham in the mid-1950s. I am not familiar with the process of proof testing but can't see how they could be stamped and not fired.

During the war, I doubt the Brits had time to do anything more than take them out of the boxes and issue them.

 

[DWalt]

For SAAMI definitive proof loads, the general principle is that the load will produce between 140% and 155% of the SAAMI working limit for maximum average pesk chamber pressure for calibers having less than 15,000 psi limits. However, there are different percentage ranges established for higher pressure limit cartridges. I have no idea what the British used for proofing pressures. While I don't know, I would assume that the 3-1/2 Ton marking (which is probably CUP) applies to the maximum average peak chamber pressure limit for the .380 Revolver service cartridge, and proofing would have been performed at a higher pressure.

During the war, the British did not perform proof testing for Lend-Lease military weapons from the US. They took what they got from S&W and whoever else supplied guns tp them. For example, Savage supplied Lend-Lease .303 Enfield rifles.

 

[deadin]

During the war, the British did not perform proof testing for Lend-Lease military weapons from the US.

It's my understanding that the British only proofed military firearms after they were released by the government to the commercial market and were intended for private sale or export.

 

[DWalt]

As I said "during the war." They did when they were sold out of service.

 

[Doug M.]

Welcome! You have a WW II Victory in .38/200, also known as .38 S & W. It is not chambered for .380 Auto (9 X 18 mm).

*
.380 auto is 9X17. I will, sometime tonight when I am nowhere near the computer, recall the usual name for the 9X18. IIRC, the Brits called at least one cartridge for these (and other) revolvers the .380 something". That recollection is of little value.

You have a few options. 1) Sell it to someone who wants a Victory that is still in the original caliber instead of messed up by being reamed out to shoot .38 Special, then buy something that appeals to you that is less of a nuisance to feed. 2) Buy the expensive ammo made by Buffalo Bore and maybe some others, that likely makes this an adequate defensive piece if you want it for that. 3) Buy enough ammo to shoot and then take up reloading. I recall seeing somewhere on this forum, a couple years ago (probably in the reloading subforum) a decent string about reloading this cartridge, written by someone who put a lot of effort into the project. I recall others saying that the work looked well done; I am not even arguably qualified to judge that.

 

[murphydog]

Correct...the 9 X 18 was called the Super, used in Walther PPs. Thanks for the information .

Edit to add: perhaps the OP will reappear, so we will have someone else to include in our discussion .

 

[2152hq]

For SAAMI definitive proof loads, the general principle is that the load will produce between 140% and 155% of the SAAMI working limit for maximum average pesk chamber pressure for calibers having less than 15,000 psi limits. However, there are different percentage ranges established for higher pressure limit cartridges. I have no idea what the British used for proofing pressures. While I don't know, I would assume that the 3-1/2 Ton marking (which is probably CUP) applies to the maximum average peak chamber pressure limit for the .380 Revolver service cartridge, and proofing would have been performed at a higher pressure.

During the war, the British did not perform proof testing for Lend-Lease military weapons from the US. They took what they got from S&W and whoever else supplied guns tp them. For example, Savage supplied Lend-Lease .303 Enfield rifles.

1954 (revised) proof law marks,
Rifled firearms were proofed with a load anywhere from 30% to 45% over the cartridges Max Service Pressure.
I don't have a listing of the msp of '54 proof law handy so I don't know what the 38S&W was rated at the time in England. It would have been the same at Birmingham and London Proof Houses.

What was marked on the bbl was the Max Service Pressure in Long Tons per in/sq of the cartridge the gun is chambered for.
IIRC a Brit Long ton/in/sq = 2240 psi,,Google seems to agree but I still don't trust it!

Proof marks are in bold circles to designate a non-English made firearm.

All this done before releasing the Sold from Service (surplused) arms on the commercial market in the UK as required by proof law.