S&W CS9 My take on it.

[18DAI]

As many of you know, I've been looking at different sub compact pistols with an eye to aquiring a new BUG to replace my former 640-1 BUG.

Saturday I came across an early production, blue CS9. LNIB with box and two mags. After a substantial amount of dickering over price with the owner, it came home with me. I'll cover what I don't like about this CS9 first.

My first cursory examination of the CS9 had me wondering if it was one of the "value line" pistols. I didn't think it was. But this CS9 has far more in common with my 910 pistol and the model 908 than it does with the 3913 series guns. The plastic sights and parts are just one of the similarities.

Like the 908 and 910 the CS9 has no lug on the barrel to lock it up tightly to the slide. Rather, the top front edge of the barrel hood locks it up by contact with the front/top/forward edge of the ejection port. This is not my preferred method of ensuring tight lock up. Accuracy suffers with this method vice the barrel lug and corresponding cut in the top of the slide in my experience.

The finish on the blue CS9 is identical to that on my 910. Which is to say not very good. Or long lasting either. After a few dozen draws the finish on this new to me CS9 is worn to bare metal on the high spots and muzzle already. Not that it really matters as I purchased this pistol to be a working piece. But I expected melonite or some durable finish on a deep carry piece.

While the guide rod in this CS9 is metal, the plunger is plastic and already fairly chewed up. I don't really worry about this as the plastic guide rod in my 910 was similarly chewed up and that gun functioned properly for 19,000 rounds. But for the asking price of a CS9 I think a metal plunger would have been better and warranted by the cost of the gun.

The last thing I didn't care for was the fit of the CS9 flat base plate. When fitted into the pistol the CS9 flat base plate sits too far forward. Forward by 3 or 4 mm from the base of the frontstrap. It didn't make for a comfortable grip, for me. As the CS9 does not fit my hand when using the curved base plate this left me with a problem as I prepared to take it to the range.

Fortunately, the flat base plate from a 3913 mag fits the CS9 mag perfectly and fits me perfectly as well. Problem solved.

Now that I've covered what I didn't care for about this gun lets get on to what I REALLY LIKED about it. I like shooting it! Function was, as expected 100% through the limited time and ammo I had in stock.

After leaving the show and driving back to my apartment for a quick clean and lube it was too late in the afternoon to go searching for 9mm ammo. Not wanting to pay the scalpers price at the local indoor range I emptied my coffee cans of discarded rounds and found 60 rounds of 9mm. 20 of which were my favorite load the Winchester Ranger 147 grain bonded JHP RA9B. Good stuff!

I only had two mags with the gun. So I loaded each with seven rounds and checked the gun to see if it shot to POA. It did not. It shot low. It shot low with every weight except 147 grain. The 147's it shot slightly low at 3 yards. I didn't shoot the CS9 beyond 3 yards because there was no reason to. Thats not what this gun was designed for and it lacks the inherent accuracy, for me, to shoot at distance. This gun is not a bullseye gun. I do not really consider it to be a "fun range gun", although it was very pleasant to shoot. Even using Ranger 127 grain +P+. quite the fireball and boom with that round! 3.5 inches at the 3 yard line using Ranger RA9B was the best group I shot during this abbreviated session. All my other groups were 4 inches or larger using the other rounds I had with me.

Where this little CS9 really excelled, for me, is shooting it in scenarios where it would likely be used, by me. That is, up close and fast shooting. I was using a Mixson target. This target has a 5 inch bright green square on the chest and a 5 inch diameter bright green circle in the head. It lends itself perfectly for the "5X5X5" drill. The 5X5X5 drill is one designed to see if a gun "fits you". The object is to place 5 rounds into a 5 inch by 5 inch square at a range of 5 feet as fast as you can form a snap sight picture and squeeze the trigger. The little CS9 performed VERY well in my hands through this drill. EVERY round fired during the 5 shot strings was a hit. No misses. The vast majority were low and mostly to the right. Low because the gun shoots low. To the right, because I'm a lefty and was slapping the trigger very quickly and evidently often. I was extremely pleased with this performance by the CS9.

The only pistol I've done this drill with over the last six months to come close to equaling the CS9's performance was the XDs9. And I missed a few times with the XDs9. Evidently the XDs9 didn't "fit" me as well as the CS9 does.

The Cirillo index comes naturally when shooting the CS9. The square flat back of the slide making it easy to form a snap sight picture, combined with using the bright white dot front sight. Really effortless during a stressful fast shooting moment.

So, after evaluating all the popular currently in vogue compact/sub compact 9mm pistols, I have to say I like the CS9 best. The XDs9 is in second place and the Sig 290RS third place, for me.

I do wish that S&W had placed a little more effort into the CS9. A lug of the barrel and better sights being a must. Its not like they were giving these away back then. Even with only $525 in it I expected a little more for my money. Perhaps the later production stainless models were better. Dunno.

I do know that the CS9 is very reliable and combat accurate. Great trigger too. Unlike the similar current production plastic 9mm S&W has replaced it with. The CS9 also returns to battery on its own, when pushed out of battery, as could occur during a struggle. And even though this particular CS9 was manufactured in 1998, it still retained its three white dots in the sights!

I don't know if I will wind up having a long relationship with the CS9. In 9mm I much prefer the 39XX series. Fit my hand better and far more accurate, for me.

But in a sub compact easily concealed, bet your life reliable, "get off me!" 9mm, there is much to like about the CS9. Regards 18DAI

 

[GaryS]

Nice report. A couple of surprises here. First that you didn't know that the CS series were "Value Line" guns. Second, this is the first time that I've heard that the 908 doesn't have a barrel lug. I knew that the 910 didn't but not about the 908.

I'm also surprised that you found a difference in the flat base plates. Then again, I think all of the CS9 magazines I've bought had the curved base plate.

My CS9 is more black than blue, and it's definitely not a polished finish. It's a reliable, easy to carry concealed, 9mm pistol. I get about the accuracy out of it that I expect. I'm not expecting shoot outs at 50 yards, I'm expecting that if I need to use it, it will be as you describe.

I like the 39xx firearms better, which is why I carry a pre rail 3913TSW. Which seems to shoot consistently low for me, but that's a different story.

As much as I like it, I expect that when I get the ambition, the CS9 will be put up for sale.

 

[Fastbolt]

Congrats on the CS9.

Yes, the original versions in the black finish probably don't have as durable of a finish as the "blued" 3914's. They were budget models, after all.

A friend of mine bought one each of the first production CS9/CS45's in black finish (before stainless was produced). I think he paid $369/ea at a sporting goods store. He eventually traded off the CS45, but kept the CS9. It's been a hard-used little gun and it's still serving him well.

The plastic sights were something S&W quickly changed out to the standard low-mount Novak type cast steel 3-dots.

The plastic guide rod plunger is a mixed blessing, of sorts. Yes, you can remove the steel plunger from one of the later production 1-piece guide rods which have the removable steel plunger & plunger spring and replace the plastic plunger & spring in the CS9 rod assembly.



The mixed blessing bit is that the steel plunger can make it a bit harder to push the slide stop pin in/out. The plastic plunger is easier, but can get a bit chewed on the end. I went back to using the plastic plungers in my CS guns, and simply remove any "strings" of nylon chewed off the end. As long as the plunger keeps the slide stop in the frame, it's doing its job and doesn't have to look pretty.

I found the practical accuracy of the CS9's to be surprisingly good. The borrowed one I first tried was every bit as accurate as my 3913, and the CS9 I finally ordered (one of the newer production versions - steel sights & ambi safety) was just as accurate.

How accurate? Well, using any of the 147gr, 124gr +P & 127gr +P+ issued loads we'd used over time, I was able to make called hits on wooden clothespins (holding the targets to the cardboard backboards) out to 7 yds.

For those folks who think it's easy, a couple comments.

First, hitting a wooden clothespin aligned vertically requires NO trigger jerk resulting in any amount of horizontal stringing (but allows for some fudging in the way of vertical stringing, if you aim at the middle of the pin) ... A horizontally aligned pin allows for some horizontal stringing, but NO vertical stringing ... and the hardest pin to hit is one placed on the edge of the backboard in a diagonal position, as that doesn't let you fudge either vertically or horizontally. You have to hit the spot at which you aim anywhere on the pin's body.

I think the short flat wound recoil springs take a bit of a beating in the little CS guns, so I tend to replace the recoil springs more often than in my other 3rd gen guns.

The different single stack 9mm butt plates are a personal preference, and I use all 3 different versions.



I've never gotten around to spending the money on night sights for my CS9, although I have an older Ashely Express Big Dot front night sight on my CS45 (before they put the tritium capsule in the rear ramp sight base for that model).


If I were going to do it again, I'd get the standard size XS front Dot. The Big Dot is easy to see, but covers too much of the target out at 25+yds for "precision" shots. Sure, it still lets me hit the steel at 50 yds, but it's a bit slower to align for smaller targets, and the shallow V-notch rear sight doesn't "center" & "hold" alignment as well as the excellent U-notch used in the M&P 340 (which uses the standard XS front Dot night sight). Oh well, in a perfect world, right?

Enjoy the little CS9. You might decide to try changing the sights at some point. I don't know if S&W still stocks the night sights for the CS9, but they can be pricey. You might get a better price calling Trijicon directly and seeing what they offer that would fit. Using a sight pusher is best for installing night sights (versus brass drift punch and 4 oz ball peen hammer ), and take care not to mangle (tweak or clip the end off) the springs underneath the rear sight base.

Congrats again.

 

[growr]

As much as I enjoyed my CS9, I ended up trading it straight across for a FS M&P .45 at a local gun show several years ago....the vendor just loved how the CS9 fit into his vest pocket and I was always in the market for a M&P .45...both sides were happy....

Saw the vendor at the last Billings gun show and the CS9 still rides in his vest pocket and he LOVES it! He told me to keep my eye open for another one so that he can get one for his wife as she keeps thinking it is hers!!

Randy

 

[JohnHL]

Great write up, 18!

I used to buy gun magazines to search and I always hoped to find the high quality reviews and technical commentary with which you, Fastbolt, and other posters to this forum regularly and typically grab and hold my interest.
You exhibit a finely honed talent for the printed word and if you ever tire of chasing crooks, I'm sure a rewarding career in publishing awaits you.

I really enjoyed your last post and I'm looking forward to your next post.

John

 

[18DAI]

Thanks Fastbolt!

Granted I've only got one VERY abbreviated range session of 60 rounds through the gun, so it could very well be more accurate than my first impression. I'm quite sure that I would have a slim chance of popping off any clothes pins at the 7-yard line with my example though. At this point in my experience with it anyway. Then again......I might be hard pressed to do that with my 3913 too.

I think that the sights are the problem. The rear is quite high and plastic. I like the front sight. It has a large bright white dot that is easy to aquire. I like Novaks, so I may just get a Novak rear sight next payday and see if that fixes the POA/POI problem. Like I mentioned, the little CS9 was not bad with the 147 grain RA9B which is what it will be used with. Those shot pretty close to POA.

I'm going to leave the nylon plunger in place. The one in my 910 was shredded worse and didn't cause me any problems. I will heed your advice and just shave the strings off it occasionally.

I do need to order new and spare recoil springs and get a couple more mags. I'm not in any hurry, so I will keep an eye on Gunbroker and the classifieds here. If you have those parts numbers handy that would be a great help as the S&W website is no longer easy to use.

I'm using an OWB belt slide for a Glock 27 which fits the little CS9 just fine. It works IWB with my Bianchi 3913 holster too.

One of the other fellows here is bringing me an Apache ankle rig to try the CS9 in. So carrying it is covered.

I always thought the Chiefs Special line was its own seperate product line. I never realized they were value line guns. No matter, as the value line guns exceed any currently produced S&W in quality, reliability, trigger and accuracy.

In fact, I've often wished someone offered an aftermarket barrel or a bushing to increase the inherent accuracy of the 910. That was the first S&W semi auto I personally owned, back in 1995, and still is one of my favorites. Don't get me wrong, its combat accurate and using the Cirillo method I've done quite well with it in IDPA matches. I just wish it shot as tightly as my other 3rd gen pistols. The trigger on it is superb. The 910 also "looks like what a semi auto pistol should", to me anyways.

BTW Fastbolt, I've not forgotten you. I swear! I've just been covered up with work and off duty work as well as various other issues. Best regards, 18DAI

 

[18DAI]

Thanks GaryS and growr!

Thanks for the kind words JohnHL! I have thought about putting down on paper some of what I've seen, heard and experienced over the last 19 years. But........most of it......nobody would believe. Best regards, 18DAI

 

[JohnHL]

Do it, 18!

The more unbelievable a true story is, the more compelling it is to read and share!

Like the strategic planners are wont to say: "We are limited by the plausible. Reality has no such constraints!"

Keep it up!

John

 

[tom-tom]

A few comments on some excellent posts:
I don't sweat the lock-up location, lug v barrel hood. It works for Glocks, SIGs, and these Smiths. As long as the dimensions are right, the fit's tight. My CS9 and 908S seem every bit as tight as my 6906. I certainly can't see any differences at the range.
I didn't realize there's any difference in the floor plates for the single stacks. I like the curved pads on the CS9 and am trying the the flat piece on the 908. I'm saving a 1/4" or so for concealment; the slightly longer grip frame gives me room for my little finger. I'll have to see how the pistol handles - it came and I've mostly shot it with - over time if I keep the flat on the gun.
On the issue of sights: my CS9 has Meprolight night sights and they replicate the issue equipment both in profile and (apparently) material. Trijicons are metal and of different profile. Also, the front sight for the Mepros are fractionally taller than factory, but I'm sure different front heights are available.
Most of my pistols shoot low for me. It's something I've learned to live with. The one consistent exception is my pre-war Woodsman. It's front sight seems really high and I shoot it to dead center.
My eyes prefer the fully flat top of the 908 as opposed to the tapered flat of the CS9 or the rounded flat (not meaning to sound contradictory) of the 6906. The 908 gives me a great sighting plane.
Things I ponder:
Why did S&W cut different dovetails? There seems no purpose at all to do so, since you have to change the machinery. If I want to save money, I use the same setting on everything and also save money on the machine adjustments and inventory.
Why futz around with size and locations of the markings? One has the stuff on one side of the slide, opposite on the other. Even if it's just a laser cutter, it needs to be switched, again taking time.
Did S&W use the slide serrations for the CS series on any other pistol? They're deeper, less numerous, and angled. I think they work great.
For 18DAI: As a lefty, do you miss the right side decock lever? Also, please let us know how the ankle holster works for you. The CS is the only 9mm I've ever considered for such a mode of carry.

 

[Fastbolt]

... I'm quite sure that I would have a slim chance of popping off any clothes pins at the 7-yard line with my example though. At this point in my experience with it anyway. Then again......I might be hard pressed to do that with my 3913 too.

Start @ 3yds. It's all about steady grip & trigger press while FOCUSING on sight alignment follow-through during the full trigger press.

I once enjoyed a bit of good-natured competition with a good friend (another firearms instructor, and a SWAT firearms instructor) during an evening range session. He was very pleased with his new Wilson CQB and had made some comment about my 3913 (at that time, equipped with the WIDE dish-shaped Novak Ghost rear sight base, so precision shooting was, well, not quite so easy ).

We stood within one of the many shadowed areas on our outdoor range. We shot at wooden clothespins, starting at 3 yds. 1 shot each to hit a clothespin, moving back 1 yd at a time for subsequent clothespin shots until 1 of us missed his shot. We made it to 13 yds, where he dropped his shot and I made mine. Granted, his CQB is a great 1911, and his mixed yellow/grn night sights were a distinct advantage ... but a bit of complacency can be dicey.

FWIW, since I had to "float" my front night sight up inside the ears of that wide, dish-shaped rear notch (black, without tritium in the rear base), and making those hits was more than a little difficult. Frankly, I expected to miss one of my shots first, which made me really work at it.

It wasn't long afterward that I ordered a stock factory Trijicon rear sight base to replace the Novak Ghost rear base, giving me 3 illuminated capsules to align, and a narrow rear notch. It made "precision" shots MUCH easier.

I do need to order new and spare recoil springs and get a couple more mags. I'm not in any hurry, so I will keep an eye on Gunbroker and the classifieds here. If you have those parts numbers handy that would be a great help as the S&W website is no longer easy to use.

CS9 recoil spring (painted dark red) is part #263210000

If they mistakenly send you the green spring , it's for the CS45, and you need to get the red one.

I'd order at least half a dozen to make it worth the shipping. I replace mine about every 800-1200+ rounds, depending on whether I'm using standard pressure, +P or +P+ loads. Sometimes I'll just replace it annually if I'm shooting it often. I'm admittedly a bit overly conservative in recoil spring replacement, as I like to take it easy on the alloy frames.

The armorer recommendation for spring replacement for the CS guns was still the same 5 year/5K rounds fired as the other 3rd gen guns. I'll typically replace the mag springs closer to the standard replacement interval recommendation, or sometimes at every other recoil spring change, depending on how they feel during shooting.

While the other frame parts are the same as the other single stack 3rd gen 9's, the mainspring (hammer spring) is shorter, and perhaps makes for a slightly harder DA press. Hard to quantify just by "feel".

One of the things I particularly like about the CS9 is how the shorter slide/barrel tends to put more of the heft of the gun closer back in your fist. Less muzzle weight extending & balanced out in front of your fist.

This makes it feel somewhat "lively" in its balance & controllability. Lighter & faster than my 3913. The shorter slide and faster cycling also seem to contribute to the lively balance and fast handling. More "snap" to the felt recoil ... but faster back on-target, too (presuming a solid grip/locked wrist, of course).

Dandy little subcompact alloy single stack 9.

The short grip profile doesn't really lend itself to large (wide) hands, though, which is a common complaint heard about them.

BTW, as a lefty 18DAI, you could always use one of the black finish ambi assemblies to make your CS9 more lefty-friendly. It'll require checking the decocking "timing", though, and maybe fitting a new sear release lever. Not hard to do if you have a small vise (even a $10 table edge model) a small file and 3 numbered metal drill bits (used as Go/No-Go "gauges"). I can email you the info and some pics if you ever want to try it. It might take a couple of the inexpensive sear release levers if you miss keeping one of the required angles on the bottom of the lever's "foot". I don't have any more spare ambi assemblies, though. I think I put my last stainless finish ambi assemblies in my friend's black CS9 (he liked the contrast of the finishes, so I gave him a stainless slide stop lever, too).

 

[18DAI]

I appreciate the parts numbers Fastbolt, and the pro bono training tips too! Thanks again Fastbolt!

As to being a lefty and having the early, left side only decocker, as tom-tom inquired, its not a problem, for me.

My 3914NL.......which my GF heisted from me and my 910 both had the one side only decocker. So I have prior experience with single sided decocker/safeties. I only use it as a decocker and return it to the ready to fire position after decocking the pistol. I carry those three guns safety off ready to go right out of the holster. For storage I flick it on and drop the mag. I leave the round in the tube and store the gun in a secure box.

With a holster that covers the trigger guard and the firing pin safety in the gun I'm good with those methods. Funny you fellows should mention that "issue". I've been cautioned on more than one board to be "wary of the the single sided safety being inadvertantly knocked on during use" and "what will you do then!?!"......Well.....I guess I'd just use my thumb......and flick it back up to off.....and keep shooting.

I really can't see a situation that would allow that to occur as my thumbs are on the right side of the pistol during firing. So, I guess it just doesn't really concern or affect me. If I need to handle the pistol administratively, at the jail or in the office, I just flick the safety on before drawing the pistol from its holster.

So, I'm going to leave the blue CS9 as is. I will probably look for one of the stainless examples down the road, IF the CS9 model and I continue to get along.

You fellows have me thinking about my 910 now. Time to get her out of the safe and go to the range! Regards 18DAI

 

[Fastbolt]

No need to change anything as a lefty if you've already adapted to using the right-handed guns.

BTW, you're aware the CS guns use the Value Line mag catch assembly, right? Plastic nut (button) but a steel mag catch body. No plunger to adjust the mag catch nut height (like on the regular 3rd gen frames), and a single different ("tornado") spring underneath the nut (which has a specific orientation).

The plastic nut/buttons are a 1-time use part, so if you remove it you must replace it with a new one. (There's a raised ring on the inside of the plastic nuts, which snaps over a corresponding raised ring on the end of the steel mag catch body's pin.)

 

[Fastbolt]

I appreciate the parts numbers ...

Sent you an email.

 

[JohnHL]

Hi, tom-tom!

Great post and great questions. I would like to know the answer to them all myself.
I think I know the answer to one of them, re: Value Line sight dovetail cuts.
IIRC in a gun mag once I read that S&W was paying fees to Wayne Novak to use his design so in order to keep the price down on the Value Line guns they used sights of their own design.
Validation or repudiation requested and welcomed.
John

 

[tom-tom]

Quote from JohnHL:IIRC in a gun mag once I read that S&W was paying fees to Wayne Novak to use his design so in order to keep the price down on the Value Line guns they used sights of their own design.


That makes sense. But there's this: Although I haven't measured them, the front sight dovetails look the same on the CS9 and 6906. The front sight for the 908 is totally different, matching the square top of the slide.
I admit sometimes I'm anal about this sort of stuff, not that I lose sleep over it.

 

[losingle]

Lots of great info on here, dumb me tried pulling the plunger out the guide rod and must have re inserted the spring in backwards. Stuck in the bottom of guide rod, and will not engage the plunger, did not know you could put it in backwards. Plunger now falls out of guide rod. Don't work very well and can't get the spring out? Also looking for a new guide rod assembly, have tried Brownells, midway, numrich, Jack First, and google, no go, anyone got any info on where to get a new assembly? Sorry to hi jack but you'se got me started on it.

 

[GaryS]

Let me add to my surprise that I'm surprised you only had 60 rounds of 9mm!

Thanks GaryS and growr!

Thanks for the kind words JohnHL! I have thought about putting down on paper some of what I've seen, heard and experienced over the last 19 years. But........most of it......nobody would believe. Best regards, 18DAI

 

[JohnHL]

Lots of great info on here, dumb me tried pulling the plunger out the guide rod and must have re inserted the spring in backwards. Stuck in the bottom of guide rod, and will not engage the plunger, did not know you could put it in backwards. Plunger now falls out of guide rod. Don't work very well and can't get the spring out? Also looking for a new guide rod assembly, have tried Brownells, midway, numrich, Jack First, and google, no go, anyone got any info on where to get a new assembly? Sorry to hi jack but you'se got me started on it.

H, losingle!
I don't know if this will work but here's what I would try.
Get a piece of thin, stiff wire (like from a wire brush) and bend a little V hook in one end. Push it into the guide rod and maybe you can hook the spring and pull it out.
Good luck!
John
Back to your regularly scheduled post.

 

[Fastbolt]

Lots of great info on here, dumb me tried pulling the plunger out the guide rod and must have re inserted the spring in backwards. Stuck in the bottom of guide rod, and will not engage the plunger, did not know you could put it in backwards. Plunger now falls out of guide rod. Don't work very well and can't get the spring out? Also looking for a new guide rod assembly, have tried Brownells, midway, numrich, Jack First, and google, no go, anyone got any info on where to get a new assembly? Sorry to hi jack but you'se got me started on it.

If you look at the pictures of the spring (and the spring, itself), you'll note the ends are different sizes. There's a small end and a large end (meaning the size of the end coils).

The small end is meant to be snapped onto bottom end of the plunger, and the larger end is inserted inside the guide rod body.

If the spring is down inside the rod, oriented properly (small end "up"), pressing the plunger fully down inside the rod (rest end of rod on hard surface) ought to snap the small coil end of the spring onto the end of the plunger. If the large end is "up", the plunger probably won't catch and hold it (never installed one upside down).

The rod assembly (including plunger & spring) is more than a $16 part from the factory, not counting any applicable tax & shipping. Dunno if they have them in-stock, or have them back-ordered.

Trying to hook and capture the spring may work, but also poses the risk of damaging the spring, and/or gouging the inside of the rod body. I'd be very careful what material I used to try and recover an upside down spring.

BTW, a twisting motion while inserting the spring has been mentioned as being helpful. Something about turning the wide end of the open spring in the direction which would work with friction to maybe compress it (not spread it) a bit. I'm sure any machinists can offer a much better explanation. I forget in which class it was mentioned, but I've found it helpful when starting the plunger spring inside the head of the rod.

 

[losingle]

Got it out with bend straight pin my wife assisted with light. Got it inserted and seated properly thanks to the above info. All is well, great thread.