S&W Military and Police (WW2 donated?)

[MLA6021]

My father has a vintage M&P he acquired while in the Corps just after WW2. He got it in a trade with a US sailor who served in Europe during the war. It's a typical 6" barreled .38 Special M&P. What makes it unique is that it has English crown proof marks on it, and also stamped with the words "NOT ENGLISH MAKE". It also had at one time a lanyard retrofitted to the butt. I say retrofitted because whomever installed it drilled through the serial number, something they would not have done at the factory. I was told it was probably a donated pistol from the US, not a Lend Lease, and definitely not a Victory model. The pistol is in good shape, still pretty tight, but could use a new cylinder stop. Bore looks good, too. The stocks are original, and have the matching serial number stamped on the inside portion. I would guess, based on the serial number: 672150 that the pistol was manufactured in the 1930's. Any way to determine an exact year of manufacture?

 

[DWalt]

The closest SN I list to SN 672150 is 6710xx shipping in 8/38. I also list one a little higher than yours which shipped in 10/38, and several others nearby which shipped in 2/1939. For sure, it was imported into Great Britain, but exactly by what means would be difficult to say. The SN suggests that it might be a little early for the wave of British military purchases and contracts which began around 4/40 after the "Phony War" turned real. Nor does it exclude it from being one. The British were buying whatever weapons they could get from the USA at that time, even from retail stocks. You might check the chambers to see if they have been bored to accept .38 S&W cartridges. Allegedly the British were known to have run .38 S&W reamers into .38 Special chambers so the .380 British service ammunition could be used.

 

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum.

"I say retrofitted because whomever installed it drilled through the serial number, something they would not have done at the factory."

Yes, at times the factory DID drill through the serial number. If someone ordered a six inch .38 revolver with the lanyard loop and S&W wasn't doing a run of K frames at the time, they would take a standard 6" Military & Police and install the lanyard. The factory would then restamp the SN on the side of the grip frame, under the grips.

Looking at your pictures, it appears that a hole has been drilled into the butt. S&W installed lanyard loops by drilling 1/10" forward of center. This hole looks like it is towards the rear of the butt and would not have been done by the factory.

Could you post a picture of the butt?

 

[MLA6021]

You might check the chambers to see if they have been bored to accept .38 S&W cartridges. Allegedly the British were known to have run .38 S&W reamers into .38 Special chambers so the .380 British service ammunition could be used.

Thanks for the info on the manufacture dates. That was much help.
That's funny you bring up the bores. I took the pistol completely apart, gave it a good cleaning and lube. I noticed the chambers looked rough. What I mean by rough is not polished. All have tool marks still in them, which I found odd. My other S&W's, more modern ones have smooth, polished chambers. I've never noticed any deformation in the .38 special cases from rounds I have fired through the pistol, though. Would that occur?

 

[MLA6021]

Looking at your pictures, it appears that a hole has been drilled into the butt. S&W installed lanyard loops by drilling 1/10" forward of center. This hole looks like it is towards the rear of the butt and would not have been done by the factory.
Could you post a picture of the butt?

Thanks for the info. Here's a close-up of the lanyard hole.

 

[DWalt]

Unfortunate. It could be inferred that the legal SN has been mutilated. Be be careful to not get involved in any situations in which you may have to use it. I'd also not discuss the fact you have it.

Can you see two "shoulders" inside the chamber?

 

[MLA6021]

Unfortunate. It could be inferred that the legal SN has been mutilated. Be be careful to not get involved in any situations in which you may have to use it. I'd also not discuss the fact you have it.

Can you see two "shoulders" inside the chamber?

The pistol also has the serial number stamped in two other places, on the barrel and on the cylinder. Even the wood stocks have the serial number stamped inside them.
I'm a career LEO and ran my fair share of stolen weapon check via a serial number through the system. I also dealt with firearms that had the serial number deliberately altered or removed. An intent to alter or remove. That serial number was drilled through to facilitate a swivel sometime before WW2. Not deliberately done to alter the number. As an LEO no way would I see that as a criminal attempt. Besides I have the entire serial number on other parts of the handgun that allow me to run a check on it and enough of the one with the swivel hole is visible it's obvious they match.
I observed no visible shoulder in the chambers. They were definitely reamed out it seems and a really rough job doing so. The person who did it was no master gunsmith. They did a terrible job.

 

[linde]

. . . That serial number was drilled through to facilitate a swivel sometime before WW2. Not deliberately done to alter the number. As an LEO no way would I see that as a criminal attempt. Besides I have the entire serial number on other parts of the handgun that allow me to run a check on it and enough of the one with the swivel hole is visible it's obvious they match . . .

Your judgement as an LEO is rational and sound, but . . . if the ATF or prosecuting attorney wants to hassle someone . . . the ATFE regulations say the serial number must be on the frame (that's because the barrel, cylinder & grips can be replaced).

Below is an example of a factory installed lanyard ring after the gun was finished and before it was shipped (confirmed by factory letter). Note the factory re-stamped the s/n on the left side of the frame.

If your very nice M&P was mine, I would somehow make sure the s/n appears on the frame.

Russ

 

[DWalt]

While an individual officer may have reason to overlook a defaced SN on a gun, the fact remains that it constitutes a clear violation of the letter of the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968 making guns with defaced or removed serial numbers illegal. And there are no exceptions so long as the weapon meets the definition of being a "firearm" under the Act. The only "Legal" SN location is on the frame, as BATFE recognizes the frame as the being the gun. Everything else is just a part.

 

[MLA6021]

Thanks for the info guys.
Trust me, I ain't sweating the serial number with the hole drilled through it. If it concerned me that much I'd probably just destroy the pistol myself with an acetylene torch. It doesn't hold that much value to me or my dad. Just the product of horsetrading between GI's in the 40's. I worked with ATF agents as an LEO. Always found them to be reasonable and dedicated. Don't think any of them would be quick to put the cuffs on my ninety year old WW2 veteran father for having a 1930's era revolver with a hole drilled through the butt serial number, ha ha. There are as they say, "bigger fish to fry".

 

[AlanDavid]

The NOT BRITISH MAKE marking was used from 1925 to 1955. Your revolver has British commercial proof marks ob the barrel, a bit hard to make out but they look like the London proof house.

When you say it has a British crown mark, is this on the frame near the hammer and looks like the W in a crown mark in the photo attached, which is from a Colt Official Police revolver?

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

 

[Absalom]

....
When you say it has a British crown mark, is this on the frame near the hammer and looks like the W in a crown mark in the photo attached, which is from a Colt Official Police revolver?
...

Alan:
I have never heard of or seen the Woolwich inspector mark you reference above on any revolver other than Colt OP's from the BPC contract from 1941. Have you knowledge of this appearing on any S&W guns? That would interest me.

 

[AlanDavid]

It would interest me as well, as I have never seen this mark on any S&W revolver either. However this mark has appeared on some relativity obscure smaller purchases of arms. Its use on Savage made TSMG's, S&W Light Rifle and Colt Official Police revolvers is quite well known, but this mark also appears on 100 Colt Woodsman .22 pistols, some Mossberg MB42 rifles and some .32 Colt hammerless pistols, along with some Colt New Service revolvers in .45 Colt and .357.
Regards
AlanD
Sydney