Thanks, Mike! 
S&W Model 69
- Thread starter Backlighting
- Start date
Mike,
If you really want to have some fun, get yourself a chronograph and test some of the velocity claims of ammo makers.
Do this with different barrel lengths and different guns.
Do it under different temperature and weather conditions.
Then do it all over again with handloaded ammunition.
Then try it again with different lots of the same components.
Then do it again with new brass, 3x fired brass, and multi x fired brass.
I think you’ll find that very few real life velocities will equal maker’s “optimistic” claims (especially with shorter barreled handguns) – not saying some won’t (Buffalo Bore and Underwood seem to most consistent in equaling printed claims). Double Tap seems to be a bit optimistic -- PPU also falls in the "a bit optimistic" category.
A lot of work has been done on factory ammo by “Shadow” and “Intercooler” here:
44 Magnum Factory/Commercial Ammo pulldowns - 10mm-firearms.com
Check out Double Tap results in posts – #16, #17 and #48. Remember “Shadow” is using an 8 3/8” S&W and “intercooler” a 7 ½” Redhawk. Double Tap “made it’s bones” loading hot 10mm ammo. I chronoed some DT 230gr WFNGCs at 1,045 fps vs the stated 1,120fps from a glock 20 – the same gun DT used for the quoted vel. Diff guns, diff component lots, diff temp, etc., etc.
Don’t mean to infer this is “the definitive” study but rather an example of a couple of interested shooters conducting some limited tests.
From John Taffin on Elmer Keith’s guns and loads:
-44 MAGNUM: Keith early settled on 22.0 grains of #2400 with his #429421 bullet for 1225 fps. out of a 4" Smith, 1400+ fps out of a 6 1/2" Smith or 7 1/2" Ruger. These are hunting handloads pure and simple, with this load taking big game all over the world.
The Sixguns and Loads of Elmer Keith
Anyway, while you are right that the 265gr Load at 1,140 fps (4 ¼” bbl) isn’t a full spec .44 Mag load, it certainly comes close. The Fed Factory load at 1,217 fps (which I chronoed at a 1,375 fps from a 7 ½” Ruger Bisley Hunter is .44 Magnum ammo from a major manufacturer and was made in 1981.
Anyway, there is a wide range of .44 Magnum loads, some of the ones that achieve very high velocities, are from Botique makers and probably do so at questionable pressures – they aren’t going to blow your gun up, but over time they will most likely loosen it up. At a $100/box of 50 delivered, you won’t be shooting these in any quantity. Further, I can’t duplicate their velocities in my guns using current reloading data. Different guns with the same barrel length will also give different velocities. Go back up to my post #13 – the 240gr XTP, 270gr Speer FP, and the 325gr Beartooth loads are right out of Hodgdon’s on line load data – you can see my results from 4 ¼” bbl vs Hodgdon’s.
Really didn’t mean to get this long winded, but thought it might be appropriate to discuss mfg claims and “.44 Mag specs”.
Also, I’m not sure who would buy the M69 to shoot hundreds of Buffalo Bore “Deer Grenades” (240gr at 1,600 fps) – which is refed as a +P load (no such thing as +P load for .44 Mag).
FWIW,
Paul
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Mike_Fontenot
Member
Thanks for all that info ... very useful. I thought the velocities you quoted were the velocities listed by the manufacturer on the box (and could be compared against other manufacturers' listings on their boxes), which often are for fairly long barrels (which are often not included in the listing).
I've do have a chronograph, and I used it a good bit to assess loads for my S&W360sc .357 scandium/titanium snubby years ago, but my only place to shoot here now is at an indoor range where I'm not allowed to place anything (like a chronograph) downrange from the firing line, so no personal measurements have been possible for my 10mm 1911 and my .44mag M69.
I am aware that it's hard to predict the effect of barrel length on muzzle energy without making actual measurements. I shot some Underwood 125gr .357 JHP's out of my Model 60-15 3", and the flash and blast were horrendous ... that seems to imply that the pressure was still quite high when the bullet exited, and that a longer barrel would probably give much higher velocities. On the other hand, both Underwood and DoubleTap 10mm loads (with both light and heavy bullets) gave very little flash and blast out of my full-size 1911 (roughly a 4" ACTUAL barrel length), which seems to imply that in that case, a somewhat longer barrel probably wouldn't produce a lot more velocity.
I haven't shot any of the .44mag DoubleTap ammo I've bought yet, so I don't know yet how much flash and blast I'll see out of my 4-1/4" M69. (I bought it with the intention of using it as my carry round, because it has been my favorite round for my 10mm 1911). I DID shoot a little of the PPU .44mag ammo, and didn't notice much flash, so my 4-1/4" barrel probably doesn't handicap me very much for that round. Perhaps their listing is wildly optimistic, though ... I don't know.
AlaskaDawg
Member
Have had mine for several months now. Three came in to my LGS and was able to pick the best of the three. I wear fingerless bicycle gloves when range shooting. 200 grain flying ash trays (bought a lot of them when they stopped making blazer versions of it.), 44 special heavy 255 grain HC Buffalo Bore and just fine. 210 grain Silvertio 44 magnum also fine, 240 grain magnum AE noticeable but manageable. 255 grain HC BB Low recoil 44 magnum BB. About as much fun as I want but perfect for the Model 69. Have about retired my PC 629 snubbie 44 magnum. Still have a place and times for the 44 magnum Night Guard. The Model 69 if it's my hand better than the N frame, perfect balance of weight, handy and carry. As though made for Alaska fishing the rivers, camping and hiking. My Marlin 45-70 is the hunting rifle and for checking out things, but sometimes will have only a handgun and the Model 69 is becoming a favorite.
Found one local today. Picking it up first thing in the morning. Can't wait to fire it. My first handgun was purchased in 1977. A S&W 19-4 .357. Still have it. The model 69 should go nicely with it I think.
Found it. Looked at. Fondled it. Bought it. Like it. Waiting a couple of weeks before I can get out to fire it is going to be a long wait.
Yorkie Man
Member
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Use the speed loader for the Charter arms 44 spl. HKS # CA 44
falcon1
US Veteran
Have one on the way next week but can't find a speedloader for it.:
Thus far, I have found that the Charter Bulldog .44 HKS speedloaders work, BUT I haven't yet put them through any hard use....
falcon1
US Veteran
You beat me to it. This is what happens when I answer before clicking on the second page....
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Mike_Fontenot
Member
Have one on the way next week but can't find a speedloader for it.:
I got an HKS speedloader for it on Midway's webpage ... it's listed as being for .44Special Charter Arms Bulldogs.
Oops ... I didn't see that there was a second page either.
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