S&W N*°1 shipping crate

[ENNE-FRAME]

Hi Forum's Friends in a salvage garage i have found this crate, it appears me as a fake, size: 14"x10"x4"
I have seen only the photos, i need your opinions
Here the link of the buy and sell website:
Cassetta legno vintage - Collezionismo In vendita a Cuneo
the request is about 80 EUROS equivalent to about $80

 

[mrcvs]

I agree, fake or reproduction.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

The label looks exactly like my Storrs advertisement.

 

[Spurdann]

Not an original by any means.

 

[iby]

It is a real modern fantasy box

 

[BMur]

Reproduction

The box or crate is a mix of old wood and new farm raised wood(modern) the nails also appear to have round heads. Round head nails were introduced in 1890 but weren't used in large quantities until the 20's.

If it were a period crate all the joints would be Tongue and groove and the nails would be square head/square sides.

The lid is very interesting though because that wood is Tongue and Groove and the wood is old. So the lid may be part of an early advertisement. I wouldn't toss it!

Could you post several photos of the lid from different angles?

****ALSO photo 3? What is that?

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


I don't know about S&W, but Winchester used screws on their
shipping crates. There is a story in the memoirs of a major
Winchester sales person that watch the crates for an order
being built and the workmen would hammer the screws in. He
pointed to the slot in the screw and ask them (with sarcasm)
"what do you think that is for?" and the workman answered
"without that, you would have a hell of a time getting it open."
The salesman just shook his head and walk out of the shipping
department.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[marinevet]

I'm guessing there is nothing original about that...........

 

[iby]

Hi There,


I don't know about S&W, but Winchester used screws on their
shipping crates. There is a story in the memoirs of a major
Winchester sales person that watch the crates for an order
being built and the workmen would hammer the screws in. He
pointed to the slot in the screw and ask them (with sarcasm)
"what do you think that is for?" and the workman answered
"without that, you would have a hell of a time getting it open."
The salesman just shook his head and walk out of the shipping
department.


Cheers!
Webb

That was an old carpenter joke when I was young

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

That was an old carpenter joke when I was young

I went back and looked up the anecdote. It is in The Winchester
Era by George Madis, 1984 1st Ed. on pg. 57. The salesman was
Thomas Emmett Addis.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[ENNE-FRAME]

The box or crate is a mix of old wood and new farm raised wood(modern) the nails also appear to have round heads. Round head nails were introduced in 1890 but weren't used in large quantities until the 20's.

If it were a period crate all the joints would be Tongue and groove and the nails would be square head/square sides.

The lid is very interesting though because that wood is Tongue and Groove and the wood is old. So the lid may be part of an early advertisement. I wouldn't toss it!

Could you post several photos of the lid from different angles?

****ALSO photo 3? What is that?

Murph

fine, very well

 

[BMur]

Broadsheets/Signs

Early advertising included wood planks because the inked wooden sign would last much longer than paper broadsheets. Especially back then when they did not have climate control except for some form of primitive heating.

Someone obviously has the old printing dies for the Smith & Wesson Revolver and fabricated that image OR it's an original image on an old sign that has been embellished to look like a crate. I'm trying to be nice but if that's true that was a significant mistake!!

Often early prints had a number associated with the image. That's what that marking that I circled looks like to me. A proprietor would mail order the plank sign for their business based on the order or sign number. Then post it on a wall or outside their business.

It's very common when an antique item is found in PARTIAL CONDITION to embellished it into something it's not to increase value or a very poor attempt to restore it.

Prior to restoration you really need to think it through because often you're destroying value!

These early signs are EXTREMELY RARE because they had little value during that period and would be used for fire wood during a hard winter. So survival rate is very low.


Murph

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Early advertising included wood planks because the inked wooden sign would last much longer than paper broadsheets. Especially back then when they did not have climate control except for some form of primitive heating.

Someone obviously has the old printing dies for the Smith & Wesson Revolver and fabricated that image OR it's an original image on an old sign that has been embellished to look like a crate. I'm trying to be nice but if that's true that was a significant mistake!!

Often early prints had a number associated with the image. That's what that marking that I circled looks like to me. A proprietor would mail order the plank sign for their business based on the order or sign number. Then post it on a wall or outside their business.

It's very common when an antique item is found in PARTIAL CONDITION to embellished it into something it's not to increase value or a very poor attempt to restore it.

Prior to restoration you really need to think it through because often you're destroying value!

These early signs are EXTREMELY RARE because they had little value during that period and would be used for fire wood during a hard winter. So survival rate is very low.


Murph

Murph
I'm sorry, but that crate is an absolute fake. Smith & Wesson never did a wood sign like this.

 

[BMur]

Sign

Hey Don,
The signs weren't fabricated by Smith & Wesson. They were made by printing outfits to sell various products. Not just guns but all forms of products.

That number on the lower right represents a specific print they offered. So that's the sign number. One of many. It was an early mail order type of advertising that was more desirable than a paper broadsheet.

The possible sign in my opinion has been altered and restamped with the CAUTION AND HANDLE WITH CARE stamp.

Where it's been restamped HANDLE WITH CARE you can clearly see the print is bold and looks new AND the wood has been sinfully sanded to remove the original print which would have said something like " SEE PROPRIETOR" with hands pointing from each side at the printing. Which to me is sinful!

I've researched signs before and seen some collections years ago. They are very neat and rare when found they are usually very faded or only partially visible. I have no idea what they sell for now but years ago they were very pricy.

I'd have to see this one in hand but you can clearly see the different tones in the wood where it's been sanded and boldly stamped etc. notice the gun image is faded as is the sign number in the lower right. That looks right to me but this is all based on a photo.

Someone really messed up on this one. Too bad.

What got me into the sign research was reloading tools. I've seen plank signs for Ideal tools, Winchester, UMC, etc. All of them had that sign number on the lower right just like this one does.
Murph

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Don't you think the factory, or Roy would have a sample? I still stand by a fake.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Here is my original 1857 flyer from J W Storrs. I've seen literally hundreds of ads and shipping containers from all the major firearms and ammunition manufacturers and I've never seen a shipping crate with an ad printed on the cover.

 

[BMur]

Fake

You could be right Don,

With an open mind though it's possible that it's an old sign that some person poorly decided to alter into a pathetic crate.

Where the bogus HANDLE WITH CARE stamp is there would be two hands pointing like in my photo.


The signs are very rare.

I learned from research that the gun drawings were specifically designed to attract the illiterate customers. They couldn't read or write but they did recognize hands pointing and drawings of revolvers etc.

And with an open mind we have to answer the question: Why would a faker put a sign number on the lower right side of the wood crate?

Murph

 

[mrcvs]

I think once phrases like "Handle with Care" and "Caution!" are used, you start to think mid Twentieth Century, at the earliest. Here's printed instructions from a Smith & Wesson box from the 1870s (.38 Single Action First Model "Baby Russian") and no such jargon is employed.

 

[BMur]

Sign number

Just one last comment.

I zoomed in on the photo and what I can make out is;

MCO 656

The bogus nailed on wood rib blocks the beginning of the sign number which also supports its altered but what it would read is something like;

DCM CO 656

The initials represent the sign maker and the number represents this design. So they made a lot of signs!

Murph

 

[ENNE-FRAME]

thanks to all.