S&W perfected 1st model or 2nd model ????

I may as well continue on with my ignorant questions on these and try to figure out the sight barrel combination.
It does seem a bit odd that they "happen" to be within 700 of the frame.
That being said....doesn't appear to me in my ignorance with the barrel markings to be a 1st model one.
With a serial number in the 9,000 range shouldn't be a second model one?
Not knowing how to read the serial number doesn't help as it could be in the 1,000 range read the other way ?
and with this type of rear sight doesn't seem right for a 3rd ?

Can anyone tell I'm still confused.....LOL

Another picture to hopefully help

 
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weatherby said:
I may as well continue on with my ignorant questions on these and try to figure out the sight barrel combination.
It does seem a bit odd that they "happen" to be within 700 of the frame.
That being said....doesn't appear to me in my ignorance with the barrel markings to be a 1st model one.
With a serial number in the 9,000 range shouldn't be a second model one?
and with this type of rear sight doesn't seem right for a 3rd ?

Can anyone tell I'm still confused.....LOL

Another picture to hopefully help

Click to expand...

The bottom of your barrel appears to be radiused----as opposed to "flat"---hence a 1st/2nd barrel. Serial number says 1st Model. Barrel address says 2nd Model. Pick one. I pick 1st Model. So why isn't the barrel marking correct (Model of '91)? Because it isn't. Maybe the roll die was broken that day. Maybe someone made a boo-boo. They were not about to shut down the line and send everybody home for the rest of the day. I have a "Model of '91" target revolver---matching numbers----letters----all the good stuff----except!!! Except the barrel marking is "wrong"------single line like this one. Why?? Now we're back where we started. My solution is: "Don't sweat the small stuff!"------it's hazardous to your health!!

We, as collectors, are happy campers when everything is perfect. We don't live in a perfect world.

Ralph Tremaine

And the rear sight on this gun is that of a 1st/2nd----not a 3rd.

But---------if you buy this----and if you shoot it, do yourself a favor and get a hold of a 3rd Model rear sight. It will bolt right on, and is vastly superior.
 
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red9 said:
Ralph,

Not to hijack this hijacked thread, but a question regarding your comment on the updated 1st & 2nd model barrels. A 3rd model with a lettered 6" barrel just sold at auction for what I thought was a very low price (I was the bargain basement underbidder). I hope it went to someone here. How many short barreled 3rds are out there? Were they 6" 1st model barrels or shortened 3rd's?

Bob
Click to expand...

How many short barreled 3rds are out there?----an excellent question! I don't have the first clue! 3rds were cataloged as 10" guns. Both 6 & 8" 3rds were made. I have a 6" 3rd. Bought it the mid-90's from the Bonhomme(??) auction folks in San Francisco. It's as new---allegedly from the factory collection---does not letter as such----was shipped to Wm. Reed & Co. in Boston. They were 6" 3rd Model barrels (made that way), not 1st's, not shortened 3rds. I have seen exactly three of them in 50 years of poking around. I have never seen a legitimate 8" 3rd.

As an aside, I need two guns to (essentially) complete my collection of target guns. They are an 8" 3rd Model SS, and a 6" 2nd Model SS. I expect to die without them. Perhaps I'll come across them after that-----or not.

Ralph Tremaine

I said the short 3rd barrels were made that way----not shortened. On second thought, that doesn't make good sense. There's no way in hell I'm going to pop for forging dies for a handful of short barrels. I'm going to cut down 10" barrel forgings, and get on with the program.
 
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So it is not flat bottomed, so not a 3rd barrel. But the serial really does look to be 9231 stamped from bottom to top - so read from outside the barrel and looks like possibly overstamped to me. I am just going by memory but I thought the barrel was normally stamped going the other way. And 9231 is not really a number for a 2nd model barrel is it? Could be for a new low number 1st to 2nd transition, but strange if not matching frame and frame not stamped on front of grip...?
 
WHO'S ON FIRST?

crossv said:
So it is not flat bottomed, so not a 3rd barrel. But the serial really does look to be 9231 stamped from bottom to top - so read from outside the barrel and looks like possibly overstamped to me. I am just going by memory but I thought the barrel was normally stamped going the other way. And 9231 is not really a number for a 2nd model barrel is it? Could be for a new low number 1st to 2nd transition, but strange if not matching frame and frame not stamped on front of grip...?
Click to expand...


I can make out the 9231 just fine----reading from bottom up. 4-5 SS's I just grabbed all have barrel numbers which read from the top down. I can't make much of anything sensible reading this one from the top down. 9231 is absolutely not a 2nd Model number. I know of only one 3rd Model with a radiused barrel (bottom)----and this ain't it!

That leaves this as a 1st Model barrel with a 2nd Model barrel address.

Under the heading of miscellaneous dic-doc proving absolutely nothing, neither the frame nor barrel number of this gun is in N&J.

Quittin' time!!

Ralph Tremaine
 
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Because it isn't. Maybe the roll die was broken that day. Maybe someone made a boo-boo. They were not about to shut down the line and send everybody home for the rest of the day. I have a "Model of '91" target revolver---matching numbers----letters----all the good stuff----except!!! Except the barrel marking is "wrong"------single line like this one.

That I find very interesting.
What is the approximate serial of that gun?
 
Here is a picture of my first model of 91 with the side adjustment screws, of which the screws are smaller & the sight blade is thinner, than the Perfected 3rd model sights on barrel at left.
 

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ol777gunnerz said:
Here is a picture of my first model of 91 with the side adjustment screws, of which the screws are smaller & the sight blade is thinner, than the Perfected 3rd model sights on barrel at left.
Click to expand...

Well now--------you have presented a sight totally unknown to me. More importantly, you have presented a sight totally unknown to the late Bob Neal. He wrote THE book on S&W sights.

I once presented a sight totally unknown to him too. He opined it was a one-off by a gunsmith---had me halfway believing it too. It took me three years, but I finally found another one---and then another. It wasn't a one-off-----just pretty damn rare.

So, I opine I need more information. Is this the sight you mentioned earlier----the one I pronounced as a 3rd Model sight? If so, I dimly recall it's numbered to the gun----yes? If yes, I don't have three years of patience left in me; so let me suggest you fire off an email to Jinks (along with that photo (and any/all others you deem to be of benefit))----and see what's what. Maybe it's a one-off by a gunsmith----never mind that it sure doesn't look like that to me!!

Ralph Tremaine
 
weatherby said:
Because it isn't. Maybe the roll die was broken that day. Maybe someone made a boo-boo. They were not about to shut down the line and send everybody home for the rest of the day. I have a "Model of '91" target revolver---matching numbers----letters----all the good stuff----except!!! Except the barrel marking is "wrong"------single line like this one.

That I find very interesting.
What is the approximate serial of that gun?
Click to expand...

I don't do "approximate" serial numbers. The EXACT, COMPLETE serial number is 22530.

Ralph Tremaine

To add to your edification (and confusion/amazement if you're anything like me) this revolver was shipped June 7, 1910. 1st Model SS #23001 (which shares the 38 SA 3rd Model frame (and serial number series) with this revolver) was shipped March 9, 1905. HUH??!!! I realize this is supposed to make perfect sense in the world of S&W----but it doesn't.
 
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weatherby,
I see most of the features of a first model. Hole for the cylinder stop and hand. Two pin frame.
The second model dips where the recoil shield would normally be on the first. This would be the earliest serial number I know of in that configuration.
The serial number on the butt, I have also seen on lettered single shots.
The second model type barrel with non-matching numbers, well, I would say it was added.
Post the letter as soon as you get it please!

Terry Wagner
 
Thanks Terry I appreciate you taking the time to comment.

The second model type barrel with non-matching numbers, well, I would say it was added.

I totally agree.

The serial number on it by what I have been trying to learn is one of the things that I found and still do find a bit baffling.
 
As Terry points out the frame seems to be a significant new example with the early serial, which makes this gun interesting. I am still interested if you have been able to examine the barrel and latch serial numbers more closely and see if they are for sure the same and if there is any indication they may have been overstamped as I suspect on the barrel. As mentioned before, I think if you hold the grip in your right hand, hold the latch open with your left thumb, the numbers on each part should read from left to right, ie top to bottom on the bbl and outside to inside on the latch (we see that the only valid reading of the barrel number is opposite this). Anyone please correct me if I am wrong on this.
 
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crossv said:
As Terry points out the frame seems to be a significant new example with the early serial, which makes this gun interesting. I am still interested if you have been able to examine the barrel and latch serial numbers more closely and see if they are for sure the same and if there is any indication they may have been overstamped as I suspect on the barrel. As mentioned before, I think if you hold the grip in your right hand, hold the latch open with your left thumb, the numbers on each part should read from left to right, ie top to bottom on the bbl and outside to inside on the latch (we see that the only valid reading of the barrel number is opposite this). Anyone please correct me if I am wrong on this.
Click to expand...

It strikes me as unlikely there is a right or wrong on this number business----only usual and unusual.

While we place great importance to these numbers today, the only reason they're there is so previously fitted parts could get back together after finishing for final assembly. Any number which was upside down or backwards from the usual, would simply have been read in the manner which made sense, and the particular gun would get stuffed together, and they'd get on to the next one. I don't see a big mystery here.

Ralph Tremaine
 
I
Modelof1891 said:
weatherby,
I see most of the features of a first model. Hole for the cylinder stop and hand. Two pin frame.
The second model dips where the recoil shield would normally be on the first. This would be the earliest serial number I know of in that configuration.
The serial number on the butt, I have also seen on lettered single shots.
The second model type barrel with non-matching numbers, well, I would say it was added.
Post the letter as soon as you get it please!

Terry Wagner
Click to expand...

I know this is a very old thread but figured I'd update a little.
The gun was priced as a chunk of Gold not lump of coal so it stayed at my local store. It is more of a coal price now so I may pursue it.



Terry, Ralph, and everyone else that was so helpful on this gun might find it interesting that it did ship as a first Model S.S. in march of 1897.
Something else that was odd about it were the stocks as they are dovetail relieved on the bottom for something like a pocket/bicycle rifle.
They were unnumbered.......I was looking very hard to see numbers....LOL
 
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Thanks for the follow up. Fascinating discussion and 3 years wait time by the seller...must not be in a hurry to make a deal :)
 
So THAT'S what dovetailed means!!

I don't have the first clue why that was done. If----IF it was done for a shoulder stock, there will/should be another little cut/gizzy somewhere up top on the grip frame. I can see altering the frame to take a shoulder stock. Modifying the grips seems "fraught with peril" as they say.

Ralph Tremaine
 
EUREKA!!!

I know what this is-----is for----the dovetail. It just popped into my mind! (And if things like this pop into YOUR mind, you are clearly in (desperate) need of professional help-----quickly!!)

Picture this: A wrist band---about 3-5 " long---made of heavy leather---and laces up like a shoe (Never mind you'd need help to lace it up---and tie it.). Now that you've pictured it, put it on. Note your wrist is no longer flexible--it's rigid. Note also the wrist band has whatever a male dovetail is called---riveted to the bottom----protruding forward.

Now, with your off hand, slide the female dovetail in the bottom of the grip onto the male dovetail thing protruding from the bottom of the wrist band. Got it? Now wrap your grubby little paw around that grip, step up to the line, and shoot a perfect score----or at least a better score than you can shoot without the wrist band.

I'm not familiar with the rules and regulations governing bullseye shooting, but such a devise is probably forbidden----without a note from your doctor. If your doctor is a fellow competitor, get another doctor.

The End--and not a moment too soon!!

Ralph Tremaine
 
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Ralph, I think you're on to something there but try this. Throw out the laces and replace with a zipper that has a big enough tongue that if need be you could use your teeth to zip it closed. What cha ya think?
 
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