S&W pre Victory question

[rakysk]

Picked up S&W pre Victory model in 38 S&W caliber.
Serial number 950052. Has few British stamps.
Above MADE IN U.S.A. stamp there is what I think is "ENGLISH MAKE" stamp. Revolver looks to be refinished.
Here are couple questions.
What is approximate date of manufacture? Grips are not original grips, correct?

 

[tenntex32]

Refinished, grips(stocks) not original, and date would be around the early part of 1942 from the pre-Victory letters I've viewed.

The stamping says "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" as it was made here in the U.S..

Remove the stocks and see if a s/n is stamped on the backside of the right hand stock. Most likely there is one and should not be for this revolver.

HTH,
Dale

 

[Absalom]

As far as I can tell, a Canadian BSR from one of the last pre-Lend lease contracts, which were filled into late spring 1942, even though L-L shipments had been going on for some months. A 950-range gun (from April/May 1942) is very late for that, but the extra mark on the butt next to the ordnance bomb and WB appears to be a somewhat bungled "arrow in a C" Canadian military property mark.

The NOT ENGLISH MAKE is interesting. It is generally part of commercial British proofing under the Rule of 1925 (valid until 1955). So the gun might have been offered for sale in Britain post-war, although that would have required additional marks.

 

[Muley Gil]

The grips are sharp shouldered post WW II Magnas. Probably worth in the neighborhood of $75 or so.

 

[chiefdave]

Picked up S&W pre Victory model in 38 S&W caliber.
Serial number 950052. Has few British stamps.
Above MADE IN U.S.A. stamp there is what I think is "ENGLISH MAKE" stamp. Revolver looks to be refinished.
Here are couple questions.
What is approximate date of manufacture? Grips are not original grips, correct?

If it helps my Canadian example, 926037, has the smooth walnut grips numbered to the revolver. Mr. Jinks gave the ship date as 2/1942 and was a LL although it lacks the topstrap property stamp.

 

[Absalom]

If it helps my Canadian example, 926037, has the smooth walnut grips numbered to the revolver. Mr. Jinks gave the ship date as 2/1942 and was a LL although it lacks the topstrap property stamp.

You got the letter or just the month from Roy? If he said Lend-lease, I'd respectfully doubt that. For a Feb. 1942, and a Canadian-marked gun, a missing topstrap stamping nevertheless being L-L would be too much coincidence for me.

 

[chiefdave]

You got the letter or just the month from Roy? If he said Lend-lease, I'd respectfully doubt that. For a Feb. 1942, and a Canadian-marked gun, a missing topstrap stamping nevertheless being L-L would be too much coincidence for me.

Just a ship date request. I did ask if it could be a direct contract but he responded LL. Does have the flaming bomb and WP on the butt. The broadarrow in the C is very small and on the left side of the frame just below and aft of the hammer

 

[rakysk]

Refinished, grips(stocks) not original, and date would be around the early part of 1942 from the pre-Victory letters I've viewed.

The stamping says "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" as it was made here in the U.S..

Remove the stocks and see if a s/n is stamped on the backside of the right hand stock. Most likely there is one and should not be for this revolver.

HTH,
Dale

You are correct. Serial number on grips does not match serial number on revolver.

What would be correct grips for this revolver?

 

[rakysk]

As far as I can tell, a Canadian BSR from one of the last pre-Lend lease contracts, which were filled into late spring 1942, even though L-L shipments had been going on for some months. A 950-range gun (from April/May 1942) is very late for that, but the extra mark on the butt next to the ordnance bomb and WB appears to be a somewhat bungled "arrow in a C" Canadian military property mark.

The NOT ENGLISH MAKE is interesting. It is generally part of commercial British proofing under the Rule of 1925 (valid until 1955). So the gun might have been offered for sale in Britain post-war, although that would have required additional marks.

Yes, stamp on bottom is definitely Arrow in C.
Are stamps on barrel also Canadian or British?

 

[tenntex32]

You are correct. Serial number on grips does not match serial number on revolver.

What would be correct grips for this revolver?

They most likely were the plain smooth walnut stocks most commonly found on military finished pre-Victory and Victory model revolvers.

Here is a pic of my U.S. NAVY use 4" .38spl pre-Victory in the 985xx s/n range. It is all matching numbers including the stocks. Your example should have delivered from the factory with similar stocks. (And a similar finish)

With the refinish that has been applied to your example it may look nicer with a set of pre-WWII commercial grips in my opinion as it now lacks the rather spartan Victory finish usually paired with the plain walnut grips when original.

That being said, the correct plain walnut grips are out there if you are dead set on having them for your example, but you will still have a different s/n on them and still yet an attempt at a commercial looking refinish still on the gun. Which is most likely why they put the commercial stocks on it to begin with.

HTH,
Dale

 

[rakysk]

Thanks for the info everyone.

When searching for "Canadian pre Victory", I found this thread:

S&W Pre-Victory

Revolver in that thread has serial number only 7,078 lower than my revolver and almost same stamps as mine.
Both could have been shipped at same time.
I guess the best way to find out would be to get letter from Smith and Wesson.

 

[tenntex32]

While I feel your example would have had the plain walnut Victory grips in the time period of the s/n, I'm really curious as to the original finish.

Can you provide us a few more good pics of the finish on the gun? It appears to be a refinish to me, but I'm curious as to any possible remaining evidence of a possible original factory brush-blue finish.

Thanks,
Dale

 

[Absalom]

Yes, stamp on bottom is definitely Arrow in C.
Are stamps on barrel also Canadian or British?

I think they are also British. The NP is Nitro Proof. The other stamps are partial and sideways rather than upright.

While I feel your example would have had the plain walnut Victory grips in the time period of the s/n, I'm really curious as to the original finish.

Can you provide us a few more good pics of the finish on the gun? It appears to be a refinish to me, but I'm curious as to any possible remaining evidence of a possible original factory brush-blue finish.

This is a good question. I have picture somewhere of a late (mid-900-thousands) Canadian which inexplicably still had a blue finish and checkered medallion stocks (numbered).

The finish on this is indeed a bit hard to assess because of the artificial light. The stampings, such as the logo, do appear somewhat softened.

 

[rakysk]

While I feel your example would have had the plain walnut Victory grips in the time period of the s/n, I'm really curious as to the original finish.

Can you provide us a few more good pics of the finish on the gun? It appears to be a refinish to me, but I'm curious as to any possible remaining evidence of a possible original factory brush-blue finish.

Thanks,
Dale

Below are few pictures taken at natural light, with my phone.
Not sure on original finish, but I think it is refinished because:
1. Stamps are softened
2. Around S&W logo, it seems like these is very light pitting covered with finish
3. Seller stated in his add that revolver might be refinished

Bore is, in my opinion, in excellent condition. Revolver has finish wear where it was, I think, in contact with holster, so I assume that it was carried, but not shot much. All after refinishing.

No big deal to me, since I bought it to take it to the range and I just like any firearm from WW2 era or older.
Need to reload some 38S&W and take it to range.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Definitely refinished. See the purple ejector rod and cylinder?

 

[tenntex32]

Below are few pictures taken at natural light, with my phone.
Not sure on original finish, but I think it is refinished because:
1. Stamps are softened
2. Around S&W logo, it seems like these is very light pitting covered with finish
3. Seller stated in his add that revolver might be refinished

Bore is, in my opinion, in excellent condition. Revolver has finish wear where it was, I think, in contact with holster, so I assume that it was carried, but not shot much. All after refinishing.

No big deal to me, since I bought it to take it to the range and I just like any firearm from WW2 era or older.
Need to reload some 38S&W and take it to range.

You gonna handload for that bad boy or use factory ammo? I've often wondered if a typical 148gr HBWC's skirt would expand enough to make a decent target load for the .38S&W considering it's slightly larger bullet diameter.

Keep us posted of your range results.

Dale

 

[mtu164]

I cast some 200 gr. rn's for my Victory the other day . Loaded with 1.5 grains of Bullseye , they did very well . Two to three inches at 15 yards. My book shows that to be a maximum load , and they showed no pressure , dropping out of the cylinder easily .

 

[rakysk]

I do reload 38S&W
Bullet 145 gr., 0.361 dia., RN, from Missouri Bullet Company
Powder HP-38 2.2 gr
Used it in S&W Safety Hammerless
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/512128-s-w-safety-hammerless.html#post139492803

and Enfield No2 Mk1 **

 

[Targets Guy]

The highest number I have is s/n 975939. It shipped 4/42.

I also own s/n 877679. It shipped 12/41.

Gives you a four month bracket.

 

[rakysk]

The highest number I have is s/n 975939. It shipped 4/42.

I also own s/n 877679. It shipped 12/41.

Gives you a four month bracket.

Thank you very much.

Do both have smooth grips?

I'm thinking replacing mine with smooth ones, if I see any at gun shows or online, but the ones on revolver now just feel right. Most likely, after I take it to the range, I'll decide if I'll get different ones.