S&W - Royal Air Force Issue

[AlanDavid]

Interesting topic. Coincidentally, I have got a day off work today and was going to do some collation of notes on these pistols.
Below,is a small list of serial numbers of similar pistols most of which are from this forum.

700451 - noted from Weller & Dufty UK auction catalogue from late 1970's
699824
700701
701178
704824
699756

All these pistols have a few things in common.
First, the crude RAF and broad arrow, which is struck on the right hand side of the frame. Traditionally, British ordnance markings are invariably placed on the L/H side of the frame.
Second,more importantly none of these revolvers as far as the photos show have the normal BPC Enfield inspection marks and broad arrow on the L/H side of the frame near the hammer. However, known BPC guns without RAF markings that do not have Enfield markings but letter to the BPC have been observed, so there are exceptions.
Third, all of these examples have 6"barrels.
Finally, these pistols are in a narrow band of serial numbers of 4,000 or so.
As Absalom says although the RAF marking would be easy to fake all these guns are genuinely marked.

As far as the date of these serial numbers and 6"barrels are concerned we can rule out the 1000 guns with 6" barrels that were part of the 'off the shelf purchase' of 2,150 pistols from S&W on 12th June 1940.(See Jinks Page 139). These serial numbers ran from about 670XXX to about 682XXX. For completeness other 6"barrel guns in this shipment of 2,150 were 150 Target guns and 145 nickel guns - clearly not applicable here.

So the next most likely batch of guns these pistols were part of would be the 20,000 BPC order of 20th June 1940, which had 6" barrels. With relation to 700701 which was ready to ship in January 1940 the serial number seems to high for that to be the case. If it was in fact shipped in September 1941 this seems very late not only for the serial number, nobody was ordering 6" barreled guns by then, everything was 5" barrels. The final shipments to the BPC being in December 1941.

What we really need is to see a S&W letters on one of these puppies. Perhaps there is one hidden in amongst the Victory Data Base thread.

Failing that, pageing ordnanceguy - paging ordnanceguy - please report to your keyboard...

Regards

AlanD

 

[Mk VII]

The S.S. Silvercedar was carrying '1000 S&W .38 Revolvers in 10 c/s' when she was torpedoed and sunk on 17th October 1941 by U-553 in the North Atlantic en route from New York and Sydney, C.B. for Liverpool in convoy SC-48.
I noted several (many) similar entries in the loss records when I was doing research for the Thompson book, but as I wasn't focussed on revolvers at the time I only noted some in passing. It would be possible to arrive at a figure for losses on the British Purchasing Commission's account. But the volume of manifests during the worst period of losses is formidable.

 

[ordnanceguy]

What we really need is to see a S&W letters on one of these puppies. Perhaps there is one hidden in amongst the Victory Data Base thread.

Failing that, paging ordnanceguy - paging ordnanceguy - please report to your keyboard...

Reporting in, sir.

The Victory Model Database shows 9 R.A.F. marked examples in this same relatively tight range, including those posted by Alan above. All are in the same configuration. None of them are recorded as having a factory letter.

However, it is my expectation that all of these R.A.F. marked revolvers would letter as having shipped to the British Purchasing Commission. S&W factory records would have no further information as to downstream users such as the R.A.F. A typical factory letter for one of the 6 inch, blued, .38 S&W revolvers shipped to the B.P.C. is shown below.



The original poster above asked about the proper ammunition issued during WW2 for these and like revolvers. It would have been the .380 Mark IIz packed in 12 round paper cartons as shown in the image below.

I hope that additional information is helpful.

Regards,
Charlie

 

[AlanDavid]

The S.S. Silvercedar was carrying '1000 S&W .38 Revolvers in 10 c/s' when she was torpedoed and sunk on 17th October 1941 by U-553 in the North Atlantic en route from New York and Sydney, C.B. for Liverpool in convoy SC-48.
I noted several (many) similar entries in the loss records when I was doing research for the Thompson book, but as I wasn't focussed on revolvers at the time I only noted some in passing. It would be possible to arrive at a figure for losses on the British Purchasing Commission's account. But the volume of manifests during the worst period of losses is formidable.

That's interesting. I wonder if a laborious trudge through the manifests would give a true figure of losses similar to that which you found in your extensive reach for the Thompson SMG book. If I remember this was a tad under 5% of TSMG shipped to the UK , lost at sea?

Regards

AlanD

 

[AlanDavid]

Reporting in, sir.

The Victory Model Database shows 9 R.A.F. marked examples in this same relatively tight range, including those posted by Alan above. All are in the same configuration. None of them are recorded as having a factory letter.

However, it is my expectation that all of these R.A.F. marked revolvers would letter as having shipped to the British Purchasing Commission. S&W factory records would have no further information as to downstream users such as the R.A.F. A typical factory letter for one of the 6 inch, blued, .38 S&W revolvers shipped to the B.P.C. is shown below.



The original poster above asked about the proper ammunition issued during WW2 for these and like revolvers. It would have been the .380 Mark IIz packed in 12 round paper cartons as shown in the image below.

I hope that additional information is helpful.

Regards,
Charlie

Thanks Charlie, that letter shows a serial number not too far of the group of six above, so we have some idea of the ship date. Over the next two weeks I will post the highest and lowest serial number in the group above on the Ask Roy for a Ship Date section and see what dates we get. Charlie if the other 3 RAF guns on your data base not in the group of six above have a serial number higher or lower than those above perhaps you could let me know, and I can use that serial number/s when I post to get a better idea of the time/spread between shipping dates?

Regards

Alan

 

[Sergeant_Pilot]

RAF S&W

Excellent thread chaps! I'm really looking forward to finding out more.

Did S&W supply cleaning rods with these exported revolvers? I'm not sure which cleaning rod would be correct to display with the RAF 25 Pattern holster?

Apparently, these rods were supplied for the Victory model and are too long for the 37 Pattern holster's internal cleaning rod pocket. The appear in typical British packaging, so they must have been re-packaged for longer term storage during the 1940's? (I don't think they're British made?)

 

[Llance]

Sergeant_Pilot: What action was necessary to make this revolver legal per current EU spec. Seems a shame and quite ugly to do this to a historical piece.

 

[Sergeant_Pilot]

Sergeant_Pilot: What action was necessary to make this revolver legal per current EU spec. Seems a shame and quite ugly to do this to a historical piece.

It'll make the Americans cry but here's the basic low-down as I understand it.

*Barrel cut open, all the way through to the chamber with a hardened steel rod welded in.
*Cylinder walls cut open and cylinders blocked.
*Mechanism between trigger and hammer destroyed.
*Firing pin and hole ground away.
*All major components welded/pinned together to prevent disassembly.
*Major components marked with the deactivation proof house stamp.

Luckily, this one was done very cleanly. Some deacts are absolutely butchered.

 

[Truckman]

Luckily, this one was done very cleanly. Some deacts are absolutely butchered.

They are all disgusting......Ben

 

[ordnanceguy]

Charlie if the other 3 RAF guns on your data base not in the group of six above have a serial number higher or lower than those above perhaps you could let me know, and I can use that serial number/s when I post to get a better idea of the time/spread between shipping dates? Regards, Alan

Hi Alan:

Of the R.A.F. marked guns in the Database the low number is 699113 and the high number is 704824. It is a pretty narrow range.

Charlie

 

[AlanDavid]

Thanks Charlie. I will post these one at a time a week apart in the members area. I will post the results here.

In the meantime if anyone else has another example of these "Raf" 6" barrel guns, please post the details on this thread, thanks.

Regards

Alan

 

[PJGP]

In the meantime if anyone else has another example of these "Raf" 6" barrel guns, please post the details on this thread, thanks.RegardsAlan

Here is mine, s/n 697923. Being ex-RAF I had to have it!

 

[AlanDavid]

Thank Peter. That's a nice example, unsullied by post war commercial British proofs. Its the lowest serial number seen so far, so will be used for the request with Roy for a ship date.

Alan

 

[DCWilson]

You can also see the blob where they tack-welded the sideplate on.

I noticed that blemish too, but thought it looked like a drill-and-pin operation to prevent the sideplate screw from being backed out.

Not that the actual process matters. Either is just a horrible way to treat a piece of history.

 

[AlanDavid]

Just heard back from Roy. Peters gun, 697923 was shipped in September 1940, so will be one of the 20,000 6" barrel BPC guns from the order of 20th June. 1940. So no real surprises there.
I am awaiting confirmation of barrel length and markings of two more pistols with the RAF marking and broad arrow markings from the Imperial War museum, in London. will post when received.

Regards

Alan

 

[OLDSTER]

Hi from North Dakota

 

[Sergeant_Pilot]

Just heard back from Roy. Peters gun, 697923 was shipped in September 1940, so will be one of the 20,000 6" barrel BPC guns from the order of 20th June. 1940. So no real surprises there.
I am awaiting confirmation of barrel length and markings of two more pistols with the RAF marking and broad arrow markings from the Imperial War museum, in London. will post when received.

Regards

Alan

Hello Alan,

Does the above give any indication for 699756?

Also, do we know when the first of this model arrived in England? I'm a re-enactor would like to know the earliest date the revolver would be appropriate for, even if my serial number is later it can masquerade as an earlier example, I just need to know when the first ones appeared over here?

 

[PJGP]

Just heard back from Roy. Peters gun, 697923 was shipped in September 1940, so will be one of the 20,000 6" barrel BPC guns from the order of 20th June. 1940. So no real surprises there.Alan

Thanks for the info Alan

Peter

 

[AlanDavid]

Hello Alan,

Does the above give any indication for 699756?

Also, do we know when the first of this model arrived in England? I'm a re-enactor would like to know the earliest date the revolver would be appropriate for, even if my serial number is later it can masquerade as an earlier example, I just need to know when the first ones appeared over here?

The earliest orders from the BPC to S&W date to June 1940, guns that shipped in say mid to late June would have been in the UK about 2 or 3 weeks later depending on which ship they went on allowing travel time from S&W in Springfield, to customs in NYC and then the dock. I don't think any guns left much before the 10th of June and probably 17th June 1940. Guns were not shipped sequentially, so 699756 may have shipped before 697923, the only way to know would be to get a Smith & Wesson letter, this being on hold until early 2022.

Regards

AlanD

 

[AlanDavid]

Two more from the Imperial War Museum. The curator has confirmed both six inch barrels. Note the different armourer applied markings.

698888 - Does not have the broad arrow.
698870

Checking my notes I see that all of these 6 inch barrel guns were shipped directly to R.A.F. Depot, Aboukir, Egypt. The guns were part of the 20,000 BPC order A-429, but the request to the S&W factory to send them to the docks in NYC no later than 30th August was from the British Ministry of Shipping. The number of guns to be shipped was 2,500.

So this explains the lack of British Enfield inspection marks on these examples.

Regards

AlanD