S&W service policy issue (and a bit of a rant)

[Echo40]

It really is sad to see what has become of Smith & Wesson. One a great manufacturer of fine American firearms, reduced to a mediocre manufacturer of subpar American firearms.

I'd hate to say it, but based on what I've read of S&W over the past year, I'm no longer interested in purchasing any of their newly manufactured firearms and will seek alternatives elsewhere.

I used to really want to own some of their iconic Revolvers like the Model 25 and 29, but now I'd rather just get a Ruger Redhawk.

 

[DWalt]

The last new car I bought came with a dealer lifetime power train warranty. But the terms and conditions are so onerous it's virtually impossible any owner could collect on that warranty. Maybe S&W pulls the same tricks.

 

[Ziggy2525]

I have to date sent in 2 semi auto pistols and one revolver back to S&W. one for repair and the other two for non warranty work and although I can't speak for others experience I can only say with what I experienced.

All my contact with S&W over the phone they have been very polite & informative. They even returned my phone calls on multiple occasions.

The last pistol I sent in, a model 10 from 1985, they refinished it inside & out to like brand new condition. Even threw on a new set of wood grips at no extra charge.

I will add, with a couple emails I got them to send me, free of charge not one but 2 brand new RSA for my M&P 9mm and a set of replacement rubber grips for my 617.

I'm not saying that I'm not buying the OP's story, all I'm saying is that everytime I had any dealings with S&W, they were very polite & professional... just sayin'.

If you go back to my OP, that had been my experience too, until now. Even in this case they were very polite.

 

[Ziggy2525]

It sounds to me like they don't want to cover it because this is "normal wear and tear" and that there is no minimum number of rounds to wear out those parts. I don't know why they didn't just tell you that, but that's my interpretation.

Even when a product says "lifetime warranty" I take it as a given that if I want it fixed at the factory, I need to spot the defect sooner than later. If I had a gun that worked fine for four years and then a part wears out, I'd consider it my responsibility to get it fixed.

Those are fair points.

My counter was/is how does a pistol that’s rated for continuous +P operation become non-repairably worn out from firing only 2,000 rounds of std pressure ammo if there isn’t a manufacturing defect? If it had 10,000 or 20,000 rounds through it, then I’d say sure, worn out. I have a reliably functioning LCP with more rounds through it than that revolver.

To your second point, the non-repairable part broke and makes the pistol inoperable. They consider the breakage to be due to “normal wear and tear” and not a “defect in material or workmanship.” They aren’t asking me to purchase a replacement part to fix the pistol. They want me to purchase a replacement pistol for retail price. In terms of timeframes, when a major vendor has a repair policy where they say they will repair or replace any parts due to defects in material or workmanship at no cost for the lifetime of the original owner, my assumption is the timeframe the phrase “lifetime of the original owner” refers to is from the moment I purchase the pistol until I either sell the pistol or die, not just four years.

Maybe those things are unrealistic expectations?

 

[silversnake]

Those are fair points.

My counter was/is how does a pistol that’s rated for continuous +P operation become non-repairably worn out from firing only 2,000 rounds of std pressure ammo if there isn’t a manufacturing defect? If it had 10,000 or 20,000 rounds through it, then I’d say sure, worn out. I have a reliably functioning LCP with more rounds through it than that revolver.

To your second point, the non-repairable part broke and makes the pistol inoperable. They consider the breakage to be due to “normal wear and tear” and not a “defect in material or workmanship.” They aren’t asking me to purchase a replacement part to fix the pistol. They want me to purchase a replacement pistol for retail price. In terms of timeframes, when a major vendor has a repair policy where they say they will repair or replace any parts due to defects in material or workmanship at no cost for the lifetime of the original owner, my assumption is the timeframe the phrase “lifetime of the original owner” refers to is from the moment I purchase the pistol until I either sell the pistol or die, not just four years.

Maybe those things are unrealistic expectations?

Yeah, it's a tough call. The part did work for four years so it's going to be hard to call it a manufacturing defect, then again, you only have 2,000 rounds through a pistol that should last much longer. If it were me, I'd call Judge Judy...

 

[hoc9sw]

....
Based on my ammo purchases, it had 100 rounds of +P (Remington/Speer) and a couple thousands rounds of standard pressure FMJ through it. Half the FMJ was a mix of Federal and Winchester. Half was Armscore.
.....
They also told me they consider any foreign ammo, including Armscore, the same as reloads, not as factory ammo. I don't think I'd seen that about foreign ammo in their manual, but I could easily missed it.

...

I've never purchased Armscor ammo, but it may not be SAAMI certified. The warranty will likely void if you admit to using reloads, reman, or non-SAAMI spec ammo.

From the manual I found online:

Use only commercially manufactured ammunition with internal ballistic pressures which are in strict accordance with the specifications of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute (SAAMI). If you are uncertain, contact your ammunition supplier for verification.

 

[kbm6893]

This is BS. 4 years and 2000 rounds is not a “lifetime warranty”. And the armscore ammo was their way out of paying you. I wouldn’t have told them about that. Who can remember every round fired from 4 years ago? Ammo fired? Factory target loads only, sir! And I just checked Armscor’s website. It says the ammo is made in the USA plant and meets SAAMI specs. And just when is 500 rounds a year to kill a gun “normal wear and tear”? Guess my 60 year old Combat Masterpiece is gonna break any time now.

Send a letter (certified mail), to the president, and make it signature on delivery. Tell them you are dissatisfied with the outcome and will never purchase another S&W product again. Might get a different result.

A friend of mine inherited his father’s Ruger Security Six when his dad died. Bought new around 1975. 30,000 rounds of .357 Magnum, at least. I doubt any .38 since his dad reloaded his own ammo and never shot .38. That was the first .357 I ever fired. 30 year old gun when he got it and it was a bit loose. Ruger said send it in. They paid for shipping both ways and brought the gun back to new. Even reblued it. Total cost was zero dollars and he had it back in like 3 weeks. They no longer service the Six series guns but I have read posts on other forums where those who sent in a Six were offered another revolver at a deep discount. One guy got a GP100 for like $400.

 

[Muss Muggins]

This is BS. 4 years and 2000 rounds is not a “lifetime warranty”.

It's a "service policy." The "warranty" is for one year . . .

 

[muddocktor]

I've never purchased Armscor ammo, but it may not be SAAMI certified. The warranty will likely void if you admit to using reloads, reman, or non-SAAMI spec ammo.

From the manual I found online:

Use only commercially manufactured ammunition with internal ballistic pressures which are in strict accordance with the specifications of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute (SAAMI). If you are uncertain, contact your ammunition supplier for verification.

I just checked the SAAMI site and Armscor is listed as a supporting member. So that tells me that Armscor sells SAAMI compliant ammunition. And off the Armscor website, I found the following statement: "ARMSCOR, an ISO 9001 Certified Company, complies with the SAAMI, CIP and other military or customer desired standards or requirements."

To me, it sounds like that rep on the phone was feeding you a line of poo and trying to get S&W off the hook for fixing their worthless revolver. I would escalate this into court if needed. It's not like you told them you fed it reloads or something else that dopesn't meet their ammunition criteria.

 

[old bear]

As much as I hate to suggest this, I firmly believe that Smith and Wesson are attempting to live on it’s past reputation; one of producing a top-quality revolver at a fair price.
Even though S&W still has a lock on the civilian market for revolvers. It appears that they don’t understand they are facing a shrinking market for their products, and one that may well continue to shrink over the years. Smith and Wesson have also forgotten the importance of Positive Word of Mouth advertising.
If I were in the market for a NEW handgun, a S&W product would not be my first choice.

 

[kbm6893]

It's a "service policy." The "warranty" is for one year . . .

Whatever they call it. They sell you a gun and promise to take care of any defects in worksmanahip or breakage of parts outside “normal wear and tear”. Aside from that being intentionally vague, 2000 rounds of range ammo and 100 rounds of +P in a gun that specifically says +P on the barrel, is not “normal wear and tear”.

I think if he pushes the issue he’ll get some satisfaction. Go over their heads. If they don’t make it right, if make it a point to tell them you’ll never buy another of their products and you’ll make it a point to tell others not to, as well.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

I just sent in a revolver with an outta spec.b/c gap 3 weeks ago. It's getting sent back fixed already. The tech guy over the phone heard what I had to say, took my word for everything I mentioned and promptly sent me a dispatch ticket(fedex).

Hard to believe this is the same company. Hard to believe.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[flagman1776]

I suggest that if the hole in the recoil shield is elongated that the revolver shipped that way & it is indeed a manufacturing defect. How could it possibly be worn oval?
This needs to get escalated.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Just as an update. From the suggestions here, I sent a very polite e-mail to the S&W CEO explaining the issue and expressing my disappointment in both the pistol performance and the service experience.

I don’t expect he reads his own e-mail, but the admin that manages his email will send it to the appropriate Director level guy.

Stay tuned.

 

[DD357]

Very disappointing; not that I would buy a new S&W revolver anyways. Never thought the day would come where I would buy a new Ruger revolver over a new S&W.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

I think that like most things, it depends on who's desk it ends up on. A polite letter to the CEO is no panacea, but it often works as well as anything to create a change of heart.

 

[500SNW]

Time isn't on the OP's side. Forget the round count and +P versus standard pressure breakdown (which to S&W's ears is irrelevant since they have no way to verify or refute OP's claims). It is still a 4 year old revolver...and S&W knows that for sure. As mileage + age increases, the likelihood they'll fix it for free...decreases. Buy a brand spanking new wheelgun and stash it away for 5 years before firing it. If it breaks after only three cylinders full...you have very little ground to stand on...despite a low round count. I learned about dealing with S&W's CS when my firing pin busted on my three year old 627 PC. I was worried that they would force me to ship it to them and then charge me for repairs. They cheerfully mailed me a replacement pin, no questions asked. That's why I find the OP's tale a little surprising. That doesn't sound like the way any customer service rep at ANY company treats customers. Is there more to the story? I'm surprised at how quickly others here jump to conclusions and vow never to buy a new S&W because of alleged lousy service. Aren't there plenty of satisfied customers posting stories elsewhere on this forum? I've read quite a few positive reviews, so I don't think we should judge S&W's CS too hastily.

 

[kbm6893]

Just as an update. From the suggestions here, I sent a very polite e-mail to the S&W CEO explaining the issue and expressing my disappointment in both the pistol performance and the service experience.

I don’t expect he reads his own e-mail, but the admin that manages his email will send it to the appropriate Director level guy.

Stay tuned.

A handwritten letter is much more effective. Like 15 years ago, I took my car to a Pep Boys to fix the AC. Three times back and forth. Even supplied them with the factory parts. Yeah, I should have just brought it to the dealer but it was an old car. $400 later and still not fixed. Even worse, it was making a screaming noise.

I wrote a detailed letter to the president of the company and sent it to the headquarters registered mail. Didn’t expect anything to happen. Three days after I mailed it, I got a call from corporate. President read the letter and they were calling to let me know that the spoke to the manager of the branch I had the work done and if I would go in with my credit card they would credit me back for the full amount.

2000 rounds of range ammo is barely breaking it in. The gun should be replaced. New 642’s are like $350 at the dealer. It’s not a small amount of money. Certainly not enough to risk losing a customer or multiple customers for life over.

 

[Ashlander]

Just a thought: Does it make sense to provide the same warranty for alloy framed revolvers as steel? As Kernel Crittenden mentioned yesterday, alloy framed revolvers are a different animal. Personally, I believe it was an engineering mistake for S&W to manufacture alloy guns to essentially the same dimensions and contours of the steel counterparts. They had to be significantly weaker and more prone to wear over the long haul. They should have beefed up the design and/or used steel inserts on contact points where appropriate.

Why they didn't? My guess is that S&W assumed most buyers of small alloy framed revolvers would not shoot them all that much, so it would not be a big problem. Basically, the aluminum frame guns were given the same warranties as the steel guns while hoping they would sit in sock drawers.

 

[L-2]

My brief S&W warranty experience with similar, but different, circumstances.

My 442-1 was ~5 months old in December 2015 @ ~1500 rounds when some internal pin broke (unknown which one, whether hammer or trigger). After ~2 months, (realize this is the holiday period with personnel off and probably a factory shutdown) S&W replaced the entire firearm as, apparently, S&W doesn't have a method of replacing just one pin in these models.

S&W even reimbursed the dealer fees as, since I was in California at the time, the new gun had to back through an FFL with the forms & fees (& 10 day wait prior to bring the gun home).

Whether the OP's situation is different due to time between warranty claim and purchase or if S&W is becoming stricter with claims is unknown.

My listed 642-1 was bought in the year 2000 and has had zero problems with an unknown round count, but over 3400 rounds (I didn't always keep a round-count log on all my firearms).