SA Range Officer Range Report UPDATE...I got it back from SA! See Post 22

[venomballistics]

since my SA seems to be doing the same song and dance I did some investigation .....
lo and behold dude .. I think I found her sins.
the chamber hood seems to be key to maintaining barrel alignment at the rear of the pipe. since you cant jam the lugs into the slide without killing the slide rails and slide release, its all on that little block o metal to keep her straight.

from a closed position push on the barrel through the ejection port. if you can move it, it can only have a lock up as random as the lottery.
hand fitting a barrel feels like a worthy challenge for me your yardage may vary.

 

[Rawhyde]

I got my pistol back from SA last week. The paperwork that came back with it says

POLISHED FEED RAMP, REAMED BARREL, RANGE TESTED -- SENDING TARGET PISTOL SHOOTS WITHIN FACTORY SPEC

MY buddy and I shot today at 20 yards and got the results in the picture. The ten round group had a couple of called flyers. Setting aside the flyers, it's pretty good. The five round group had no flyers and we were afraid to chance any, so we stopped at 5 shots.

I used Hornady TMJ-RN bullets over 4.8g HP-38 powder, and I think that will be my load until I get some lead bullets from Tn Valley.

SA's customer service people insisted that they did nothing but address the jamming issue by working on the feed ramp and "reaming the barrel". Their test target had a 5 shot group that would have fit on a cigarette pack laying on its side (about like the 7 shot cluster on the pictured target). They also insist that their accuracy spec is 3-1/2" @ 25 yards for 5 shots.

I sent the pistol in clean as a whistle and got it back dirty, so I know they shot it. I can also see some slight recontouring of the feed ramp, but I can't see anything done to the barrel. The good news is that it shoots much better!

I have a co-worker who has offered to pay me what O paid for it. Should I sell it or keep it?

Rawhyde

 

[M29since14]

Are you happy with the gun or not? If not, you've got a perfect chance to move on. It doesn't sound like you like this gun, or what Springfield is telling you they expect out of their weapons. To me, for a service grade gun, 3.5-inches is about what I would expect. If your gun consistently shoots a lot better than that, I'd say you're lucky.

 

[Rule3]

Test it with a box of factory ammo before you make a decision. See if it does any better.

 

[cowart]

They also insist that their accuracy spec is 3-1/2" @ 25 yards for 5 shots.
...
Should I sell it or keep it?

I'm not sure exactly what you are complaining about - Les Baer guarantees about twice this level of accuracy, but they charge more than twice as much for the gun. ($1900 to $2300). You get what you pay for. You didn't pay for better than what you got - and that 5 shot group indicates that you may have a gun that shoots quite a bit better than the SA standard.

 

[crofoot629]

Never sell a gun that runs and shoots well, or better than it should.

Sounds like your gun now runs and shoots well?

You would have had a real bargain to take them up on their $500 accuracy job and only been into it for $1200.

By comparison my Wilson Combats run about 3k. Qualify costs.

Emory

 

[Raider]

If its a good shooter I'd keep it.

Charlie

 

[Rawhyde]

I am happy with how the gun shoots now. I wish it had done this well when I took it out of the box, but occasionally things don't work out perfectly...

My buddy's gun shot great and mine shot breakfast plate sized groups (3 different shooters and 4 types of ammo). I was a little disappointed, but sometimes a bad one gets through the system and I figured they'd make it right.

What upset me, and maybe I'm off base here, is that they advertise this model as being competition ready. When I called up to get an RMA number and described the problem, they told me that my accuracy expectations were unreasonable. When I asked for the spec, I learned that they consider a 3-1/2" group acceptable, I was flabbergasted. That's not what I consider to be "competition ready", or a "target gun". Les Baer discloses their accuracy spec (3" @ 50 yards, or 1-1/2" @ 50 yards with the optional accuracy package). I think they should disclose their spec in their advertising and catalogs especially if they're going to tell a customer that his expectations are unreasonable.

I got a defective gun. (That's ok, these things happen.) They fixed it. (That's great!) My heartburn is with them telling me that my expectations were unreasonable when it'd be very easy for them to publish their accuracy spec along with length, width, weight, and other specifications. Disclosing that info would allow customers to make a more informed decision about whether to buy.

I'm really not trying to rant here. They did do a good job fixing my pistol, and I am appreciative of that. Just a little bit of diplomacy on their part would have made a huge impact on the situation.

I'm not sure exactly what you are complaining about - Les Baer guarantees about twice this level of accuracy, but they charge more than twice as much for the gun. ($1900 to $2300). You get what you pay for. You didn't pay for better than what you got - and that 5 shot group indicates that you may have a gun that shoots quite a bit better than the SA standard.

 

[brucev]

The following is only my opinion based on my own personal experience. Standard 1911 pistols will not produce target grade accuracy. No matter how much better might be the sights, finish, feel, etc., on target accuracy will not be target grade unless the pistol is fitted for target work, i.e., the bushing fitted to the barrel and both fitted to the slide, the slide fitted to the frame, the trigger cleaned up for a good crisp break. The pistol must be fired with quality ammunition. No matter how well fitted the pistol might be and no matter how skilled might be the shooter, firing results will not be of target grade if one uses plain ball ammo or general quality reloads. With careful attention to basic marksmanship skills, very good results can be obtained with such a pistol. Unless one is a master class shooter, firing from anything other than a machine rest will allow to many variables to affect the on target results of accuracy testing. I have owned and shot a lot of 1911 pistols, mostly COLT, Kimber and Springfield Armory. Worked on to enhance fit, etc., very remarkable results have been obtained from these pistols. But straight from the box, none of these pistols were much more than service grade shooters. If you want a target grade pistol, you will almost certainly have to have your pistol worked on by a qualified gunsmith. I have learned the hard way that trying to get such results from a plain Jane box stock 1911 is an exercise in frustration. The reason Baer, etc. charge so much is because they offer a level of accuracy that they warrant. Hope all goes well for you. Sincerely. bruce.

 

[M29since14]

If the pistol was shooting poorly to start with and they fixed it, good for them. Of course, we're all always disappointed to have to fuss around with a new gun that we expect should work properly from the first day, but as you say, things do happen in manufacturing. The good part is they stood behind the product and fixed it.

As to the other part, maybe you are new to 1911s, but really, did you honestly expect this $600-$700 pistol to shoot with an $1800-$2000 Les Baer (or something similar) based on the simple advertising fluff that it is "competition ready"? That is just not realistic and they are right about that.

I am always leery of any accuracy claim in a mass produced gun, and you don't see a lot of figures published - for good reason. As has been said of 1911s many times here on this forum by shooters who know, if you really, really want a 1911 capable of target grade accuracy, a hand-fitted pistol assembled by someone (preferably a pistolsmith) who will absolutely guarantee his work is probably the safest bet. Even manufacturers with good reputations, like Les Baer and others, do not really have the ability to work one-on-one with the end user. They are manufacturing, and while that is good because it allows them complete control of tolerances they choose to work with, they have a sizable investment with overhead accumulating every second the clock ticks.

Glad you got this straightened out and hope the Springer now pleases you.

 

[cowart]

they told me that my accuracy expectations were unreasonable. When I asked for the spec, I learned that they consider a 3-1/2" group acceptable, I was flabbergasted. That's not what I consider to be "competition ready", or a "target gun".

OK, let's turn that around. MSRP on a SA Range Officer is $939.
Give us an example of a company that currently sells a 1911 for that same price or better, and with a guaranteed accuracy better than that.

If you can do that, then you have a valid complaint.

 

[WC145]

I'm glad they got it fixed up to your liking. I would have probably done the same thing though I think that 3.5" groups at 25yds from a gun like that isn't an unreasonable guideline for them to go by and most of the guns probably come in under that. Of course, there's always a few that get by and obviously Springfield is willing to go out of their way to make their customers happy. I also had a Spingfield with problems and my CS experience was great. I bought a parkerized loaded last spring that had bad slide/frame fit issues. It was so bad that I only dry fired the gun, never shot it. I called Springfield the next day, sent them pics, and they sent me a return label. I included a letter outlining the issues and asking that they check the gun thoroughly for proper function as I had bought for a duty gun. They had it two weeks, they replaced the slide and gutted it replacing the barrel, bushing, and trigger group with their "national match" parts. They fitted everything, gave it an action job, and returned it to me with a custom shop target showing a 2" 5 shot 25yd group. It is a fantastic gun now, feeds everything reliably, fit and finish are excellent and the trigger is clean, light, and crisp, nothing like when I got it. The best part is they did it all under warranty.

 

[Badkarma 1]

Good news indeed! Glad to hear the Springfield did right by you! Dale

 

[Gasman1972]

A handgun that will shoot 3.5" at 25 yards every time the trigger is pulled is a great combat handgun but not so much fun for target shooting with the guys.

 

[Rawhyde]

I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I'm leaning towards keeping it. I got a gun that had some defects and Springfield made it right. The important part is that in the end, they did a fine job repairing it.

Like some folks have pointed out, I'm new to 1911's. Maybe I don't yet know what is reasonable to expect from the various models and price points. Even though they're apples and oranges, I still have a hard time understanding why it's OK for a $949 (MSRP) 1911 not to shoot nearly as well as a similarly priced 686. Most folks here seem to regard that as normal and expected, and I have learned that the advice given here is overwhelmingly spot-on.

I have called up Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, and Kimber to inquire about their various target 1911's. From my research, the Les Baer pistols are guaranteed to shoot a 3" group at 50 yards, and are available accurized to a 1-1/2" group for an additional fee. I can't really evaluate these guns against each other because I've never actually seen any of them in person (and I certainly can't afford to buy one of each to test), but the Les Baer's accuracy specification is better than the others, and their price seems to be less.

I think I'm going to order a Premier II with the accurizing package and most likely keep the Springfield.

 

[cowart]

I'm new to 1911's... I still have a hard time understanding why it's OK for a $949 (MSRP) 1911 not to shoot nearly as well as a similarly priced 686.

The revolver almost certainly has a considerably better trigger pull than the 1911. Its much easier for the factory to easily produce a good trigger pull on a gun that doesn't have a heavy slide whipping back and forth to disturb the hammer and sear. Your lone 5 shot group indicates that your 1911 is probably capable of very good mechanical accuracy. If you had a good pistolsmith do a trigger job on the 1911, you might find that you like it a lot better. Also, test it with actual match grade ammo, not generic 230gr FMJ bargain ammo.

 

[M29since14]

...I think I'm going to order a Premier II with the accurizing package and most likely keep the Springfield.

Without getting too long-winded, and certainly with no intent to be snobby with you, I would discourage that. There is a big difference between the way Les Baer makes their standard gun and the way they make their 1.5-inch gun. If you are an inexperienced 1911 man and you just have to spend the bucks on a Les Baer at this time, do not order the 1.5-incher.

Another thing to remember is that there are only a handful or shooters that can actually make use of the 1.5-inch gun. I certainly can't. The radial difference of 3/4" at 50-yards (the difference between a 1.5-inch and a 3-inch gun) amounts to a sight alignment error of less than 0.003" over the length of a Premier II's sight radius (6.81"). That's pretty tough to see, much less hold and squeeze.

Baer's standard gun will shoot better than 95% of the people who pick it up - maybe 99%.

 

[BE Mike]

What kind of ammo were you using? A higher grade of ammo, like Federal match 185 gr. SWC will probably produce much tighter groups. Some reloads will produce nice groups. Run-of-the-mill 230 gr. ball ammo usually won't shoot that well out of the best match guns.

 

[Rule3]

As I said back in my orginal post try some different ammo. How can you rate a gun (any gun) with only shooting one kind of ammo (handloads at that)? No desrespect to you or your loading ability which I am sure is fine. Just some guns do better with different ammo.

I have the SA A1 loaded and it's a tack driver, it cost less the Range Officer.

I went round and round with SW over a MP45. I shoot all kinds of factory ammo, hand loaded ammo, different weights, powders. SW put a new barrel in the gun and it was still sending shots all over.I sent if back several times, with targets compared to my other 45's. Their customer service was excellent and went above and beyond but the gun was what is was. Maybe a combat gun but certainly no target gun. I traded it and got a SA XDm 45 that will out shoot the MP any day.

 

[perrazi]

actually, if you have a tightened target gun,unless it's a hardball gun, shooting 230fmj will loosen it up quicker faster than anything. real match guns shoot 185 and 200 swc target loads and not the +p stuff. the faster the ammo, the faster the wear on the parts