safety v/s decocker

[walter o]

what is the differance between a s&w auto with a safety and one with a safety decocker,Can the lever be placed on safe without decocking the hammer
and then move the lever farther dowmn to drop the hammer

 

[GaryS]

No, it does both decock (if the gun is in single action mode) and block the hammer from falling.

 

[JohnHL]

what is the differance between a s&w auto with a safety and one with a safety decocker,Can the lever be placed on safe without decocking the hammer
and then move the lever farther dowmn to drop the hammer

Hi, Walter!

S&W has manufactured quite a few different auto pistols, both rimfire and center fire with various manual safeties.

For the sake of this discussion, I will presume we are talking about the series of metal framed, center fire, semi auto guns that evolved from the "Pre-model 39", that is, those models that are commonly referred to as the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generations.

The safety operation you described seems to have 3 positions i.e. on-safe; off-safe; and de-cock.

None have ever had three distinct positions.

Only two positions: on-safe and off-safe.

These safeties are most commonly found in two distinct styles: the "safety decocker" and the "decock only".

The "safety decocker" (most commonly used) employs a spring and plunger acting upon two detents to hold the safety in the chosen position, on or off.

Paradoxically, the "decock only" utilizes a coiled spring around the manual safety body to force the manual safety to the "off-safe" position whenever it is released.

I'll defer to wiser folks as to the advantage of one style over the other, but I'm inclined to believe the philosophy behind the "decock only" style can best be summarized by Col. Jeff Cooper's admonition, "Don't get caught with your dingus down."

With either style, the manual safety performs four functions:

Blocking the rear of the firing pin.

Locking the firing pin's movement.

Disconnecting the trigger drawbar from the sear and hammer.

Manipulating the sear to drop the hammer if cocked.

Of course, with the "decock only" style (a misnomer), the manual safety lever must be held down against spring pressure for the first three functions to remain engaged.

The only variation of which I am aware is that used on the limited production "single action only" models wherein the hammer dropping function is eliminated.

I hope this explanation has been found to be helpful.

John

 

[GaryS]

Then there is the Daewoo DP51 which looks similar to a 2nd Gen. I'd like to get my hands on one just to see what's like. Or Lionhart Regulus, which is based on the DP51.

 

[cd228]

IMHO John did a great job answering your question.

Another way to look at it is that the S&W safety/decocker is the M9 pistol, up is fire, down is safe/decock. There is no in between.

There is no cocked and locked postion.

If you want a handgun that can do safety activated/hammer back and have the decocker function on the same lever you need to look at the H&K USP.

 

[JohnHL]

If someone truly desires a "cocked and locked" 1st, 2nd, or 3rd gen S&W, it can be achieved by the simple expedient of filing the foot off of the sear release lever or replacing said lever with the corresponding item from one of the DAO pistols.

The hammer will not drop but all of the other safety functions are retained.

John

 

[walter o]

johnHL ON MY 669 I NOTICED THAT WITH THE HAMMER COCKED I COULD PLACE THE LEVER OVER THE RED DOT ON THE SLIDE THAT DENOTES THE SAFE TY IS ON OR OFF AND THE TRIGGER WOULD NOT RELISE THE HAMMER ,MOVE THE LEVER DOWN UNTILL IT STOPS AND THE HAMMER DROPS.THELEVER FEELS LIKE THEIR IS ALIGHT DETENT AT THE POINT THE LEVER COVERS THE RED DOT.
i LOOKED AT MY 459 AND IT ACTS THE SAME WAY AS MY 669 THAT IS WHY I ASKED
PLEASE DISREGARD .. JUST AN OLD MANS BRAIN FART FINALLY GOT MY MIND STRAIGHT

 

[rosewood]

Slightly different note, S&W also made some with the frame mounted decocker with no safety. Like the Sig metal guns, I.E. P220, P229, P226 etc.

Rosewood

 

[JohnHL]

johnHL ON MY 669 I NOTICED THAT WITH THE HAMMER COCKED I COULD PLACE THE LEVER OVER THE RED DOT ON THE SLIDE THAT DENOTES THE SAFE TY IS ON OR OFF AND THE TRIGGER WOULD NOT RELISE THE HAMMER ,MOVE THE LEVER DOWN UNTILL IT STOPS AND THE HAMMER DROPS.THELEVER FEELS LIKE THEIR IS ALIGHT DETENT AT THE POINT THE LEVER COVERS THE RED DOT.
i LOOKED AT MY 459 AND IT ACTS THE SAME WAY AS MY 669 THAT IS WHY I ASKED
PLEASE DISREGARD .. JUST AN OLD MANS BRAIN FART FINALLY GOT MY MIND STRAIGHT

Glad you got it figured out, Walter.

I knew you would.

It is easy for some folks, myself included, to think of a manual safety mechanism as being "on" or "off", just like a light switch.

But with a hammer dropping safety, the "events" must be precisely timed, lest the hammer be dropped before the firing pin has been secured.

This was especially important on the 1st gen models (39/59) which came before the installation of the trigger actuated firing pin blocking safety on the 2nd and 3rd gen models.

As you know, the sear release lever is carefully filed and fitted to assure decocking happens well into the rotation of the manual safety body.

Over time, as the slide and frame rails wear, the slide gets a little looser on the frame, and gets a little farther from the frame.

As the safety is mounted in the slide and the decock mechanism is located in the frame, decock happens later and later until that inevitable day when the lever no longer decocks the hammer.

This can be verified by holding the slide down tight against the frame and manipulating the safety lever.

Decocking is typically restored.

Some folks refer to this as time to replace a worn sear release lever, but in actuality, the sear release lever has not worn (the rails have) and the new lever is fit to accommodate the wear.

John