Scenarios to think about when using self defense with a gun?

[sirrduke2010]

I have decided not to offer my opinion on this. These will be discussion questions. The answer to each number is either true or false or choose the best letter answer. The whys of questions like this are to become acquainted with examples of assaults, threats, attacks, break-ins, robberies, etc. giving you a scenario to think about which would warrant the use of lethal force by a weapon to defend yourself, or would be better served by retreating, ignoring, escaping, and/or moving away from a threat. Drawing a weapon isn't the best option all of the time.
I. You are a man walking down the street and a youth spits on you. This is assault so you can draw your gun in self defense.
II. A person has stolen your wallet and is running away from you so you draw your gun and shoot him to stop him.
III. You are walking down an Alley and a man stops you with a knife pointed at you. He wants your money. He is five feet away. Choose one.
A. you would draw your weapon and fire.
B. You take a money clip with some bills and throw it left and run to the right or run away from the assailant.
C. Disarm the guy with the Knife.
IV. You are a female of 5'0" tall and a man of 6'5" is threatening you. He has already shoved you into a wall. He tells you he is going to kill you. You can pull a gun and shoot him.
V. A man has broken into your house and his back is to you. He is burglarizing you house. You could draw your weapon and shoot to kill.
VI. A man is trying to rape a women. He has her down on the ground and is trying to get her pants off. She could pull a weapon and shoot to kill.
VII. A man confronts you, you are a man of equal height, and is screaming and yelling at you in your face. He hasn't touched you yet so fearing for your life the first thing you do is to draw your weapon and shoot to kill.
VIII. Your store is held up by youths with guns and you pull your weapon and shoot one in the forehead. The person goes to the ground. The robber is lying motionless on the ground, the other robber has escaped, so you go back and pump five more rounds into the robber on the ground to make sure he is dead. You tell the police it was self defense. Is it self defense when the robber is motionless on the ground?

 

[OKFC05]

VIII. Your store is held up by youths with guns and you pull your weapon and shoot one in the forehead. The person goes to the ground. The robber is lying motionless on the ground, the other robber has escaped, so you go back and pump five more rounds into the robber on the ground to make sure he is dead. You tell the police it was self defense. Is it self defense when the robber is motionless on the ground?

The Pharmacist is presently serving life for murder--end of discussion.
"Scenario" taken straight out of OK newspapers.

 

[Snyderman]

1. Call him a 'c u next Tuesday' and continue on with my day.
2. Not worth it. Replace wallet contents.
3. My life is in danger. Back up at a diagonal angle and fire.
4. The guy is too close. And too big. That girl is in big trouble. If she tried to pull a gun, he would likely disarm and use it against her.
5. I live in fla, that burglar just made his last dumb mistake.
6. Again, its too late. He's too close. She needs outside help.
7. He's just yelling. Although I don't have to, I leave the situation.
8. That store owner is going to prison. And rightly so. When/if he gets out, he won't be able to legally posess a firearm.

 

[wnr700]

OK... I'll play...

I. You are a man walking down the street and a youth spits on you. This is assault so you can draw your gun in self defense. I walk away. Unless it is accompanied with physical danger, and my submission doesn't work then I may consider drawing.

II. A person has stolen your wallet and is running away from you so you draw your gun and shoot him to stop him. Let him run away. The threat no longer exists. By shooting, I would expect many of my future years would be spent in prison.

III. You are walking down an Alley and a man stops you with a knife pointed at you. He wants your money. He is five feet away. Choose one.I vote B. Give up the wallet, run like hell if possible and prepare to shoot if he is not satisfied
A. you would draw your weapon and fire.
B. You take a money clip with some bills and throw it left and run to the right or run away from the assailant.
C. Disarm the guy with the Knife.

IV. You are a female of 5'0" tall and a man of 6'5" is threatening you. He has already shoved you into a wall. He tells you he is going to kill you. You can pull a gun and shoot him.I think you shoot if you can

V. A man has broken into your house and his back is to you. He is burglarizing you house. You could draw your weapon and shoot to kill.Tough call... definatly drawing and he's got the choice to live or die. If he ran out the door... even better

VI. A man is trying to rape a women. He has her down on the ground and is trying to get her pants off. She could pull a weapon and shoot to kill.Definate...got's to go situation

VII. A man confronts you, you are a man of equal height, and is screaming and yelling at you in your face. He hasn't touched you yet so fearing for your life the first thing you do is to draw your weapon and shoot to kill. I'll be submissive to the point I can't walk or run away. Then he can stare down my Glock.

VIII. Your store is held up by youths with guns and you pull your weapon and shoot one in the forehead. The person goes to the ground. The robber is lying motionless on the ground, the other robber has escaped, so you go back and pump five more rounds into the robber on the ground to make sure he is dead. You tell the police it was self defense. Is it self defense when the robber is motionless on the ground? I would call the follow up shots...murder...

 

[sirrduke2010]

I need to preface my answers by saying that I am not an attorney so I can't give legal advice.

Number VII is a very hard one. How the police will respond to your actions can depend on witnesses and events.
The one thing that is helpful in this case is to back up without losing sight of the potential attacker. You want to distance yourself from the person. You are vulnerable to attack when you are too close. Here is the real problem you have to decide whether a preemptive strike is warranted. If you strike first you could be charged with assault. The minute the person touches you than you could respond. If you do respond you could be charge with disturbing the peace. In this particular situation many Martial Artists that strike first have gone to jail for assault. An extremely volatile situation to be in. It is an extremely difficult situation to pull a gun in if the two people are proportionate in size. Pulling a gun could be considered assault with a deadly weapon. If the guy got hold of a weapon and was threatening you with it you can pull your gun. A statement issued by many in this situation
is: "It is better to be tried by 12 than carried by six."
IV. The small woman could shoot the man because of the disproportionate size difference and threat of the taller man. There is a term for this.
VI. When I talked about this one the woman if she has a man trying to rape her has the right to use a gun with lethal force.

 

[Snyderman]

IV. The small woman could shoot the man because of the disproportionate size difference and threat of the taller man. There is a term for this.
VI. When I talked about this one the woman if she has a man trying to rape her has the right to use a gun with lethal force.

There is no doubt the women here would be justified in their use of force, I just doubt they (or a man in the same situation for that matter) would be physically able to.

If the man has a foot an a half and at least a 100lbs on her, by the time she is put against the wall he attacker is aware of the fact she isnt holding a weapon. He would probably even be controlling both her wrists. The woman in this scenario needed to use her weapon before it got that far.

Number six is in a even worse spot. If her pants are getting ripped off, the attacker again is aware of her hands. Her situation is compounded by the fact that there isnt a whole lot of places she could be holding a gun that would help at this point.

 

[Lost Lake]

I. You are a man walking down the street and a youth spits on you. This is assault so you can draw your gun in self defense. You must show you will not tolerate escalating this situation. Holding your hands up and palms facing the attacker is a good sign. A verbal, "Whoa, hey, that's uncalled for" is appropriate.
II. A person has stolen your wallet and is running away from you so you draw your gun and shoot him to stop him. Thank God he's running away. Hopefully you have your credit card company information written down so you can contact them.
III. You are walking down an Alley and a man stops you with a knife pointed at you. He wants your money. He is five feet away. Choose one.
A. you would draw your weapon and fire.
B. You take a money clip with some bills and throw it left and run to the right or run away from the assailant.
C. Disarm the guy with the Knife.
Well 'B' is nice if you are prepared! Otherwise my left hand will go up (palm out) to show I want to stop this action. It also is ready to deflect a blow. My right hand will go to my weapon and I will begin backing away from the assailant.
IV. You are a female of 5'0" tall and a man of 6'5" is threatening you. He has already shoved you into a wall. He tells you he is going to kill you. You can pull a gun and shoot him. Shoot at first opportunity.
V. A man has broken into your house and his back is to you. He is burglarizing you house. You could draw your weapon and shoot to kill. My gun is out, I will shout at the burglar to get out. If he advances I will fire.
VI. A man is trying to rape a women. He has her down on the ground and is trying to get her pants off. She could pull a weapon and shoot to kill. She should shoot if she can. If I come upon this scene I will draw my weapon and order the attacker to get away. If he continues to attack he'll get shot.
VII. A man confronts you, you are a man of equal height, and is screaming and yelling at you in your face. He hasn't touched you yet so fearing for your life the first thing you do is to draw your weapon and shoot to kill. Left hand up, right hand on my weapon, backing away trying to diffuse the confrontation.
VIII. Your store is held up by youths with guns and you pull your weapon and shoot one in the forehead. The person goes to the ground. The robber is lying motionless on the ground, the other robber has escaped, so you go back and pump five more rounds into the robber on the ground to make sure he is dead. You tell the police it was self defense. Is it self defense when the robber is motionless on the ground? This reminds me of the joke where a guy accidently shoots his hunting buddy and calls 911 asking for help. The operator says whoa, first we should make sure he is dead, there's a pause and a gunshot rings out and the man gets back on the phone and says, "okay he's dead for sure, now what"?

I've just received my permit and am carrying legally for the first time today. I may or may not have carried previously... I'm a biker and do frequent some areas that may be considered 'uncouth' to some. However I am a martial artist and diffusing a situation is the best self defense you will ever learn.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

#9: A tall blonde attractive woman forces you, at gunpoint, into her apartment where you're forced to make love to her all day. I'm sure we all hate it when that happens but our wives will understand since we are reluctant to shoot a woman.

 

[Lost Lake]

#9: A tall blonde attractive woman forces you, at gunpoint, into her apartment where you're forced to make love to her all day. I'm sure we all hate it when that happens but our wives will understand since we are reluctant to shoot a woman.

I've had that dream myself.

In this day and age though, she is probably a disgruntled woman who caught AIDS from her boyfriend and now wants to give it to as many men as possible.

 

[dogsoldier]

I. You are a man walking down the street and a youth spits on you. This is assault so you can draw your gun in self defense. FALSE

II. A person has stolen your wallet and is running away from you so you draw your gun and shoot him to stop him. FALSE

III. You are walking down an Alley and a man stops you with a knife pointed at you. He wants your money. He is five feet away. Choose one.
A. you would draw your weapon and fire. SPEED ROCK TIME!

B. You take a money clip with some bills and throw it left and run to the right or run away from the assailant.
C. Disarm the guy with the Knife.

IV. You are a female of 5'0" tall and a man of 6'5" is threatening you. He has already shoved you into a wall. He tells you he is going to kill you. You can pull a gun and shoot him. TRUE

V. A man has broken into your house and his back is to you. He is burglarizing you house. You could draw your weapon and shoot to kill. FALSE

VI. A man is trying to rape a women. He has her down on the ground and is trying to get her pants off. She could pull a weapon and shoot to kill. TRUE...sorta. She would say she 'Shot to STOP the act''.

VII. A man confronts you, you are a man of equal height, and is screaming and yelling at you in your face. He hasn't touched you yet so fearing for your life the first thing you do is to draw your weapon and shoot to kill. FALSE

VIII. Your store is held up by youths with guns and you pull your weapon and shoot one in the forehead. The person goes to the ground. The robber is lying motionless on the ground, the other robber has escaped, so you go back and pump five more rounds into the robber on the ground to make sure he is dead. You tell the police it was self defense. Is it self defense when the robber is motionless on the ground? NO

 

[feralmerril]

1. Cant even picture that happening to me as I am 300 lbs and ugly, but I wouldnt shoot him unless he pulled a gun or knife as I am attempting to pull his head off.
2. Bad deal. I would have to let him go. The ONLY time that would happen to me would be in a crowded area to start with. I wouldnt kill a slicky boy over it.
3. He`s dead unless he drops the knife.
4. She should shoot. (Unless this is a domestic thing and not a stranger).
5. I place him under a citizens arrest unless he pulls a weapon.
6. She should shoot him.
7. Not enough info here. I must have had that happen at least two dozzen times. (Mostly when I was young) I didnt kill them and they didnt kill me.
8. Not unless my name is fearless fosdick.

 

[scooter123]

I. You are a man walking down the street and a youth spits on you. This is assault so you can draw your gun in self defense.

False. No direct threat of harm. Wipe it off and walk away. Also, choose a better area for your walks.

II. A person has stolen your wallet and is running away from you so you draw your gun and shoot him to stop him.

False. No direct threat so Lethal Force is not permitted, except perhaps in Texas.

III. You are walking down an Alley and a man stops you with a knife pointed at you. He wants your money. He is five feet away. Choose one
A. you would draw your weapon and fire.
B. You take a money clip with some bills and throw it left and run to the right or run away from the assailant.
C. Disarm the guy with the Knife.

A is a poor choice because you won't be able to complete that draw before you feel that knife.

C is the best answer because it's the best in terms of Tactics. However, you should be drawing while concealing that draw and moving away. Shoot/No Shoot is then dependent on what that person with the knife does.

IV. You are a female of 5'0" tall and a man of 6'5" is threatening you. He has already shoved you into a wall. He tells you he is going to kill you. You can pull a gun and shoot him.

This a time tested disparity of ability issue and you have every right to use Lethal Force in this case. However, one issue will be whether you are physically capable of actually getting your gun in use.

V. A man has broken into your house and his back is to you. He is burglarizing you house. You could draw your weapon and shoot to kill.

False, except in Texas. Every other state requires a direct threat of harm before you may use Lethal Force. Texas only requires that a Felony is being commited and Home Invasion is a Felony.

VI. A man is trying to rape a women. He has her down on the ground and is trying to get her pants off. She could pull a weapon and shoot to kill.

True. In most states Rape meats the standard of Harm that permits the use of Lethal Force. However, in some states such as New York or California that may not be recognised.

VII. A man confronts you, you are a man of equal height, and is screaming and yelling at you in your face. He hasn't touched you yet so fearing for your life the first thing you do is to draw your weapon and shoot to kill.

False. Verbal threats or harassment do not justify lethal force. A wiser choice is to move away and draw your weapon while keeping it pointed in a "safe" direction. If that person then decides to leave then call 911 immediately. BTW, you should NEVER EVER carry without a cell phone on your person that is properly charged and in good working order. In these cases whoever calls 911 first usually doesn't face charges, whoever calls second goes to jail.

VIII. Your store is held up by youths with guns and you pull your weapon and shoot one in the forehead. The person goes to the ground. The robber is lying motionless on the ground, the other robber has escaped, so you go back and pump five more rounds into the robber on the ground to make sure he is dead. You tell the police it was self defense. Is it self defense when the robber is motionless on the ground?

Absolutely NOT. As we have seen recently it's actually First Degree Murder. What you should do is call 911 and request the Police and an Ambulamps.

 

[sirrduke2010]

I wanted to note a couple of things.

I noticed how I wrote the two women scenarios they may not be able to draw a weapon but I think my thoughts when writing it are that do the women have a right to draw a weapon and fire if they are much smaller and weaker than their attacker and if they are being raped. In both cases they do. However, in the situations I have provided they might not be able to.

I have to admit using self defense wisely is a thinking man's game which requires self control and thinking clearly in a high stress situation. It is easy to look back and say this guy was an idiot but when caught up in the chaos, anger, fear, stress, feelings that you are going to die, etc. one can make poor judgements. There is a consideration when using self defense and that is to have a plan. I would and wouldn't do this in the following scenario because if you are thinking in the moment your judgement could very well be impaired. Having a plan can set you in the right direction to make the proper decisions when the time calls for it because once you take action in some way or another it can be too late to change your decision later on. Having a plan is the one thing that gives the criminal an advantage and that is they have a plan and they are working it.

Whenever you use a gun in defense of a crime it is a big thing. The movies make a look easy but the police will investigate you and communicate will the DA to see if there is evidence to prosecute you. Witnesses and evidence are crucial to your case in proving what you say is true and that your actions were self defense. Just because you claim it is self defense doesn't mean the Police and the DA are going to buy it. They will and do prosecute people that claim self defense but the law feels it didn't meet that criteria. The other thing sometimes forgotten are the lawsuits by the attackers or burglars for being shot unfairly and if the criminal dies their next of kin can bring a lawsuit against you. The burden of proof in these suits isn't as high as it is for a criminal prosecution so it is far easier to win a lawsuit than convict someone of a crime. Some people that have used self defense fairly when threatened have been bankrupted by lawsuits for injuries. Case in point was the Bernhard Getz story in New York City. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz#Sequence_of_shots_with_Cabey_shot_on_the_fourth_shot The catch 22 of defending yourself with a gun against crime is that criminals can sometimes profit and/or take advantage of the legal system which will hurt you the shooter or the victim.

 

[Chuck1217]

Re: VIII, that actually happened, as you probably know, and the store owner (pharmacist) was convicted of murder. His case is now under appeal because the defense atty blew it- in Mas Ayoob's opinion. The pharmacist said he saw the wounded man move again, that's why he shot him 5 more times. but the prosecutor said there was no evidence he moved, that the position of the body/blood showed no movement. Ayoob says the defense should have shown how, when under that kind of stress, you may THINK you see a movement, not to mention that even when dead a body CAN still make movements. His point is there were several opportunities for the defense to show that the additional 5 shots were 'reasonable to reasoned people.' Anyway, this pharmacist was a proven liar, claimed to be a combat veteran but wasn't. The article is in the new American Handgunner.

 

[OLDFED]

For some Qs: Carry a dummy wallet with a few singles in it and toss it and run. If you're a woman about to be raped, tell the "gentleman" that you have AIDS. If that "special feeling" is running up and down your spine and your mind is about to **** out on you, then put one between the bad guy's eyes. I always liked the movie version of several baddies confronting one man. I think it was Clint Eastwood who asked. "Which one of you wants to go first?" Bottom line? We'll never know until it happens.

 

[sirrduke2010]

My Opinion:
Good point but the only way the Pharmacist could of shot that man again is if he was pointing a gun at him or he got up and threatened with a knife or gun. Even if he moved that doesn't give any justification to shoot again if he wasn't a threat. Appropriate force states that you can use as much force as necessary to stop a threat and once the threat is over the defender can do no more harm. I don't think this defense will hold up but you never actually no for sure in a trial. A good strategy for an attorney to take when defending someone with overwhelming evidence against them is to confuse the issue and what the law says. It appears with his statement that is what the attorney for the defendant has done just that. He has taken the idea "what a reasonable person would do" and confused it with what it means to use use reasonable force. The reasonable force argument isn't about what a reasonable person would do it is about stopping your defense once the threat is removed. I notice the word "reason" is used in different ways three times in the one sentence. The defense attorney has established a new law to defend his client which he has concocted to save his client. According to the Defense Attorney the reasonable force law means that a person may use as much force as necessary to be "reasonable to reasoned people." All it takes is one juror to be swayed to the veracity of this argument and the defense has won and the person will be acquitted of murder. This is my take on this but of course I am not an attorney. I take my logic for this analysis from a class I took on Environmental Health Law class I took at a University.