THIS...
Especially in today's CYA world... and especially for the newer breed of cops (new in the last 10 or so years)
Self Defense Can Sometimes Go South In A Hurry
- Thread starter semperfi71
- Start date
THIS...
Especially in today's CYA world... and especially for the newer breed of cops (new in the last 10 or so years)
Stu Honea
Member
I agree with everyone else.This is an excellant story of how things can go wrong.Good thought process by Semperfi71.
Just a couple of points on this."I never,ever want to shoot someone." I agree that none of us want to shoot anyone if we are logical thinkers and decent people.For an armed citizen this is truly a last resort.
However,it is important not to keep this thought foremost in your mind,but have the mindset and training to do it should it become necesary and legally justifiable. If the time comes that you have to shoot,hesitation WILL get you killed.
Just don't ever make that your first or only option.It's a good idea to have good empty hand self defense skills and to train in those skills for realistic situations just as you would train with your gun.
And,if you can get away from a potentially deadly situation,by all means do it. There's nothing cowardly about that, it's just good sense.
But,great post and some lessons were learned from it by the OP. It's all about being smarter(and better) than the competition,in these cases the competition being the criminal element.
Just a couple of points on this."I never,ever want to shoot someone." I agree that none of us want to shoot anyone if we are logical thinkers and decent people.For an armed citizen this is truly a last resort.
However,it is important not to keep this thought foremost in your mind,but have the mindset and training to do it should it become necesary and legally justifiable. If the time comes that you have to shoot,hesitation WILL get you killed.
Just don't ever make that your first or only option.It's a good idea to have good empty hand self defense skills and to train in those skills for realistic situations just as you would train with your gun.
And,if you can get away from a potentially deadly situation,by all means do it. There's nothing cowardly about that, it's just good sense.
But,great post and some lessons were learned from it by the OP. It's all about being smarter(and better) than the competition,in these cases the competition being the criminal element.
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cmort666
Member
And we have a winner!
My goal is not to avoid shooting someone.
My goal is to avoid getting shot... or stabbed, beaten or choked.
If I can accomplish that goal without shooting somebody, I will.
If I can't, that's just one of those things.
Pretty much EVERY instance I've heard of where an armed citizen got killed or seriously injured, they were more focused on not killing their assailant than they were on not GETTING killed.
If somebody puts you in immediate and reasonable fear of life and limb, they've made a choice, and probably an irreversible one. Don't risk your own life by second guessing that choice. Do what you have to do to stay alive. I GUARANTEE you that your assailant hasn't the SLIGHTEST concern regarding YOUR life and well being. If he did, he wouldn't BE your ASSAILANT.
Someone just posted here to not listen to LEOs. To each his own, but this LEO will tell anyone that the use of deadly force (by any means) is a last resort. Having a gun gives one no more power over any citizen than another. It does give you the means to defend yourself (if you have to) from imminent death or great bodily harm by an unlawful deadly attack by another, but at great cost, legal or otherwise (if you make a mistake). So....think hard...think ahead...
TAKJR
TAKJR
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Biginge
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Great post Semperfi71. I, too, have been giving the Florida shooting way more than a once over. To make a long story short 5 years back I was almost forced into a "good" shoot. Not to bore ya'll with the details but the three LEO's that investigated all wanted to know "why didn't you kill the idiot?" My answer was "I was meeting my buddy for a hamburger, didn't come here to kill someone." I was amazed at how steady that red dot appeared on the wife beater T shirt. It really was in slow motion and vivid today. I had my 342, with lazer sights on the middle of his chest, he had a knife and was coming at me. Verbal commands, or the Good Lord kept me from pulling the trigger. Believe me, I was just a split second from doing so. I have lived that moment over many, many times since. I am still free to come and go, don't have to hide anywhere for the rest of my life like the Florida shooter. I am really blessed that in my crisis time my training kicked in. By the way, I really don't think there is such a thing as a "good" shoot. Still enjoying all my guns, hope I NEVER have to shoot someone.
Regards
Bill
Regards
Bill
OP
semperfi71
US Veteran
I appreciate all of the comments posted here.
Back then (1978 and not 1977 as I originally posted) "times" were different and many things "do-able" that today would land someone in trouble.
In about 1987ish I had a Marine Captain friend who apprehended two out of four youths who tried to burglarize his home while he was there asleep. He used a .45 Auto to do the "apprehension" and he had to fire one warning shot to make the two he caught "sit still".
Here's what two different officers on the scene told him.
First officer to arrive, "Why didn't you just shoot them?" He was serious.
Second officer to arrive, "You're lucky you didn't shoot them, as I would have arrested you."
We now have a 911 operator in Denver who ordered folks in an automobile to return to the city as they were fleeing another auto (jeep) that was chasing them and shooting at them. Originally the "chased" refused but were told that they could expect no police help if they did not return. They did and one of them was shot to death by the shooters who found them again.
Most LEO's and their co-horts are trying to do the best job they can. However, regardless of how the current "governments" (at all levels) "think", survival is ultimately YOUR decision to make, not theirs.
Back then (1978 and not 1977 as I originally posted) "times" were different and many things "do-able" that today would land someone in trouble.
In about 1987ish I had a Marine Captain friend who apprehended two out of four youths who tried to burglarize his home while he was there asleep. He used a .45 Auto to do the "apprehension" and he had to fire one warning shot to make the two he caught "sit still".
Here's what two different officers on the scene told him.
First officer to arrive, "Why didn't you just shoot them?" He was serious.
Second officer to arrive, "You're lucky you didn't shoot them, as I would have arrested you."
We now have a 911 operator in Denver who ordered folks in an automobile to return to the city as they were fleeing another auto (jeep) that was chasing them and shooting at them. Originally the "chased" refused but were told that they could expect no police help if they did not return. They did and one of them was shot to death by the shooters who found them again.
Most LEO's and their co-horts are trying to do the best job they can. However, regardless of how the current "governments" (at all levels) "think", survival is ultimately YOUR decision to make, not theirs.
If one were to do this, we can tell what was done. The shooter would go to jail, even if the initial event was justified. Investigators are way better trained today than 20 yrs ago. The position of the body, the clothing, blood spatter and many other things speak just as a witness would but more accurately.
A decision to shoot or not is up to the individual and I would hope they are not too quick to shoot or planned to shoot way in advance as many now carrying appear to be.
TexasArmed
Member
At the very least the shooter will certainly be charged with tampering with a crime scene. You mentioned you were from South Texas didn't you? Didn't they use to hang horse and cow thieves down there? Just wondering if what they do with car thieves there now! I live in NE Texas where I guess it is not
quite as dangerous as the southern part.
PEEPING TOM?
Why not just keep the shades closed?
Why not just keep the shades closed?
Chuck1217
Member
I ca't offer any additional wisdom, personally, so will just say I agree with so much that's been said. The post about inhibiting our pursuit of life, liberty, the pursuit, is so true in ways beyond being robbed. our govt is increasing their presence in every aspect of our lives, and each time they do they are essentially whittling away at another freedom.
As for scenarios, what we would do if this happened..I highly recommend reading anything you can get your hands on by Mas Ayoob. The man is a REAL expert, having testified at tons of shooting incident trials, and has so much experience to share.
He writes in a couple of magazines each month and I can't wait to read them. He gives examples of what to do, what not to do, why, and he just makes so much sense. Hmm, sense- common sense- as someone said, there ain't much a'that around these days either. Guess common sense went out the window when govt intrusion jumped thru our front doors.
As for scenarios, what we would do if this happened..I highly recommend reading anything you can get your hands on by Mas Ayoob. The man is a REAL expert, having testified at tons of shooting incident trials, and has so much experience to share.
He writes in a couple of magazines each month and I can't wait to read them. He gives examples of what to do, what not to do, why, and he just makes so much sense. Hmm, sense- common sense- as someone said, there ain't much a'that around these days either. Guess common sense went out the window when govt intrusion jumped thru our front doors.
...and you will be in jail now (unfortunately). RAID's cops (french SWAT) have killed him in self defence, and there is still people here protesting against the "murder of M.MERAH"... here in France, no self defence is possible, even if you are shot first...i know a lot of friends target shooters here who say they will do it, but it is just words.
R.
cmort666
Member
Fortunately for me, I don't live in France.
Here in Ohio, not only would I probably not be jailed for defending others from Mohammed Merah, I'd probably get my own parade through Beachwood.
In Ohio (and many other places in the U.S.) I have the same right to defend another as I do to defend myself, if were I in that person's place I'd be entitled to defend myself.
TexasArmed
Member
cmort666:
"Fortunately for me, I don't live in France.
Here in Ohio, not only would I probably not be jailed for defending others from Mohammed Merah, I'd probably get my own parade through Beachwood.
In Ohio (and many other places in the U.S.) I have the same right to defend another as I do to defend myself, if were I in that person's place I'd be entitled to defend myself."
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Those type lowlifes don't pick places where someone can shoot back at them but select helpless vicitms. We had our own incident like that, in the person of Major Hasaan. Not one terrorist in the USA has been executed yet, and until that happens I will guarantee my own homeland security, and I will not depend upon the Dept of Homeland Security to do it.
It was a similar incident to this one in France, namely the one at Ft. Hood that made me make the decision in my mid sixties to get a CHL and once
again carry a gun, although I had not done so since vietnam. So terrorists
like this one, are high upon my list, which includes carjackers, homeinvaders, as my reason to carry my handguns. It is too bad that thee was not someone there to take this guy out before he killed a number of innocent people.
"Fortunately for me, I don't live in France.
Here in Ohio, not only would I probably not be jailed for defending others from Mohammed Merah, I'd probably get my own parade through Beachwood.
In Ohio (and many other places in the U.S.) I have the same right to defend another as I do to defend myself, if were I in that person's place I'd be entitled to defend myself."
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Those type lowlifes don't pick places where someone can shoot back at them but select helpless vicitms. We had our own incident like that, in the person of Major Hasaan. Not one terrorist in the USA has been executed yet, and until that happens I will guarantee my own homeland security, and I will not depend upon the Dept of Homeland Security to do it.
It was a similar incident to this one in France, namely the one at Ft. Hood that made me make the decision in my mid sixties to get a CHL and once
again carry a gun, although I had not done so since vietnam. So terrorists
like this one, are high upon my list, which includes carjackers, homeinvaders, as my reason to carry my handguns. It is too bad that thee was not someone there to take this guy out before he killed a number of innocent people.
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Chuck1217
Member
You are so right about terrorists being executed. The problem is that leniency extends to, seemingly, all criminals. Until we start actually punishing criminals- and that includes making them work for a living while imprisoned- they have no reason to stop. Every day they see someone getting 3 months for a home invasion, or parole for armed robbery. Sending them to jail is not enough, make the prisons self-sufficient, sorta like the 'don't give him a fish, teach him HOW..'
cmort666
Member
One of the first well covered self-defense shootings by a CHL holder here happened a few years ago. A little cretin named Arthur Buford, and a pal decided to rob a guy on his own lawn. Artie got shot and killed for his trouble. At the time of his death Artie was on probation for... <wait for it> ARMED ROBBERY.
Sometimes they only get to be two time losers, and that's to the good.
I will do the same...in another world..but here, we don't have the right of nor for ccw neither for self defense (or the guy has already killed 2 members of your family in front of you and you shoot him....hum even there, i am not sure). The " i, the jury" is not in most french spirit (of course always the same frame of "good thinking" people).
R.
OP
semperfi71
US Veteran
jimmyj said:
"PEEPING TOM?
Why not just keep the shades closed?"
I totally agree with you. This was a wife who was told in 1972, and again several times thereafter that "after dark all window shades should be down." In 1978 she was still doing it. Some people are just eternally stupid. As was she.
We were married until 1983, when she decided she wanted a better life. I got the better life and she got two worthless husbands after divorcing me. And probably still undressed in front of unshaded windows.
The police captain who gave me the "go-ahead" and other advice also had a Peeping Tom. His "arrived" because the captain's two teenage daughters continued to ignore his repeated orders to lower the shades to their rooms.
"PEEPING TOM?
Why not just keep the shades closed?"
I totally agree with you. This was a wife who was told in 1972, and again several times thereafter that "after dark all window shades should be down." In 1978 she was still doing it. Some people are just eternally stupid. As was she.
We were married until 1983, when she decided she wanted a better life. I got the better life and she got two worthless husbands after divorcing me. And probably still undressed in front of unshaded windows.
The police captain who gave me the "go-ahead" and other advice also had a Peeping Tom. His "arrived" because the captain's two teenage daughters continued to ignore his repeated orders to lower the shades to their rooms.
Good post Semperfi and alot of good things to think about. Just simply getting a CCW does'nt entitle anyone to become a LEO. That kind of thinking will get you killed. Common sense and knowledge of the laws where you live are the best answers. Too bad common sense is'nt as common as it should be today. Bottom line is and always be for me, when you cross "MY" line in the sand be prepared for the consequences.
chuck
chuck
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.... Not one terrorist in the USA has been executed yet, and until that happens I will guarantee my own homeland security, and I will not depend upon the Dept of Homeland Security to do it. ...QUOTE]
SPECTACULARLY INCORRECT! Ever heard of Tim McVeigh?
Be safe.
TexasArmed
Member
.... Not one terrorist in the USA has been executed yet, and until that happens I will guarantee my own homeland security, and I will not depend upon the Dept of Homeland Security to do it. ...QUOTE]
SPECTACULARLY INCORRECT! Ever heard of Tim McVeigh?
Be safe.
Yes I have heard of Tim McVeigh. I am referring to jihadists like Majar Hasaan, like the ones who shot up a recruiting station in Little Rock, like the one who wanted to blow up a building in Dallas, and the numerous other ones who plotted to commit jihad in New York City. Of course I realize the government prefers to classify those like Major Hasaan as work place violence, while they scream their famous phrase, as Major Hasaan did.
As I said, I will handle my own homeland security, and the jihadists like Major Hasaan, not one of which have been executed yet, including the ones the government has detained at Guantanamo has ever been executed by the US. That was the tipping point for me to once again carry my handguns. Of course my list includes carjackers, homeinvaders, and robbers. As for McVeigh, I consider him to have been a domestic terrorist.
I heard recently that Major Hasaan's trial has once again been
put off till 2012. I would bet he will not be tried before the Marine who is at Ft. Leavenworth for shooting up civilians in
Afghanstan. Who do you think will be brought to justice first?
If I am not mistaken I think the one in France likewise had been held in Afghanstan before escaping. I can't do anything about
the federal or the state government putting criminals, jihadists,
carjackers etc, on their endangered spieces list, failing to bring them to justice, and recycling many of them like they are on the endangered spieces list but I can and will protect my family.
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