Sent off to S&W for a letter

[spaniel]

My great-great grandfather was a ship captain, first on saltwater and later on the Great Lakes. My grandmother told me that she had a 45 Colt which had been his, and which he had used to kill someone who tried to knife and mug him from behind in Asia circa late 1800s or very early 1900s.

She passed the gun down to me and it's NOT a 45 Colt:

From what little I've learned from the 404XXX serial number, what I'm guessing from the likely shipping date is that he got this gun to replace the Colt as it probably went to the bottom of Lake Superior when his ship went down.

I'm not sure if he ever went on another ship after narrowly surviving that wreck, but this gun was clearly well-carried from the wear patterns. I'm very much looking forward to what Roy has to say about it.

I did have a smith work on the hand as the gun was badly out of time. He must have enjoyed shooting it as well as carrying it, as it's clearly seen its share of rounds. I shoot it occasionally with light handloads and it is still very accurate.

 

[murphydog]

Very interesting story. From the photos it appears to be a .38 Military & Police with a 6" barrel and a round butt grip frame, which is less common than the square butt. As you may already know it probably shipped from the factory in the mid-late 1920s. Please update us with the information from the letter.

 

[spaniel]

Very interesting story. From the photos it appears to be a .38 Military & Police with a 6" barrel and a round butt grip frame, which is less common than the square butt. As you may already know it probably shipped from the factory in the mid-late 1920s. Please update us with the information from the letter.

That is about the extent of what I know, except that the more rare nature of the round butt is new to me. The likely shipping date you note -- the earlier part of that range would match with a need to replace a gun lost in the shipwreck -- is what leads me to think that this may have been his replacement for the old sidearm.

His granddaughter, my grandmother, is still around so I plan to ask her this weekend what else she may recall about the circumstances.

I also have a gun handed down from the generation prior (my great-great-great grandfather) which was carried in the Ontario militia during the Fenian Raids in the 1860s....I even have the belt from his uniform. It took some work to put together that history. I find digging up the history on these old family heirlooms fascinating.

 

[Texas Star]

I think that's a Model of 1902 with a 6.5-inch bbl. Measure it.

The wear is from bad storage, although he probably used it, too.

 

[spaniel]

I think that's a Model of 1902 with a 6.5-inch bbl. Measure it.

The wear is from bad storage, although he probably used it, too.

IIRC I measured it at 6 and put that on the form. I'll measure it again but I don't think it was a full 6.5".

Who knows how it was stored the past 50ish years...my grandmother pulled it down out of her attic to give to me, but it appeared to be well cared for regardless. A single far away photo doesn't show the details well, but there are wear patterns that differ on each side that make me think it was carried a decent amount. That, or if he took it on ship with him, who knows what conditions it was subjected to.

 

[Goony]

404XXX ought to have shipped in the 1922-23 time frame, and should be a Model of 1905, 4th Change. One issue the letter will settle is if the gun was nickeled when it left the factory.

 

[spaniel]

404XXX ought to have shipped in the 1922-23 time frame, and should be a Model of 1905, 4th Change. One issue the letter will settle is if the gun was nickeled when it left the factory.

Thank you.

 

[guitar1580]

Interesting gun, and stories. You are fortunate to know the history of guns passed down through your family. That makes any gun more valuable, in my opinion.

Josh P

 

[zywina]

I live at the head of Lake Superior(Thunder Bay Ontario, Canada), the largest of the Great Lakes, where did you Great great Grandfather wreck his ship? Neat to see a gun still in the family all these generation later. I would get a letter since it is a family piece, that I dought will ever leave your families possesion, cheers from Canada, Dale Z!

 

[spaniel]

I live at the head of Lake Superior(Thunder Bay Ontario, Canada), the largest of the Great Lakes, where did you Great great Grandfather wreck his ship? Neat to see a gun still in the family all these generation later. I would get a letter since it is a family piece, that I dought will ever leave your families possesion, cheers from Canada, Dale Z!

Whitefish Bay, the wreck is in the shipwreck preserve area there.

I've inherited all of the family heirloom guns as I'm the one of my generation most interested in them and guaranteed not to let them leave the line. I have two shotguns from another great-great grandfather circa 1900 who was Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of MI.

 

[zywina]

spaniel there is over a thousand wrecks in that bay if memory serves me correct. I did not know there were that many wrecks till I saw a map with all the sunken ships at the Ryden US border store in Cook County Minnesota, wich is 45 minutes from my house. Glad to hear others are out there who gather and value there heritage, Dale Z in Thunder Bay aka "The Lake Head" to you older gentalmen that remember the name we were known as by most Americans!

 

[larryofcc]

The wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald. They did a song about it. Big Larry

 

[spaniel]

404XXX ought to have shipped in the 1922-23 time frame, and should be a Model of 1905, 4th Change. One issue the letter will settle is if the gun was nickeled when it left the factory.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

Got my letter today, and it is indeed.

"We have researched your Smith & Wesson .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 Fourth Change, caliber .38 S&W Special, revolver in company records which indicate that your handgun, with serial number 474XXX, was shipped from our factory on June 6, 1924, and delivered to Belknap Hardware Co., Louisville, KY. The records indicate that this revolver was shipped with a 6 inch barrel, nickel finish, and chekered walnut round butt grips."

So the gun appears to be entirely original. I will need to do some additional research and talk to my grandmother; my great-great-grandfather was from central Michigan, the fact that the gun shipped to Louisville was a bit of a surprise.

 

[JayCeeNC]

spaniel, I've got a 1920 .38 M&P which also shipped to Belknap, and I bought it nowhere near Louisville.
Belknap apparently was a very large dealer back in those days.

 

[spaniel]

spaniel, I've got a 1920 .38 M&P which also shipped to Belknap, and I bought it nowhere near Louisville.
Belknap apparently was a very large dealer back in those days.

Thanks, this confirmed my suspicions when I googled Belknap...with them out of business I doubt I'll ever know where it was actually bought.

 

[Frank46]

Now that you have the letter, it would be nice to also write down the family history as well. So much of the history behind these firearms is lost when the owner passes or other relatives don't either know the history or even care about it. I find the family histories very informative and sort of a look back in time. I had a good friend with whom it was my honor to work with. He was a WWII vet and authored a small book about his service. After reading it I had come to realize that the 1911A1 1943 Ithaca 45 he horse traded to me some twenty years was his service pistol. Sadly he passed away two years ago and I never thought to ask him about it. Thanks for sharing. Frank

 

[spaniel]

Now that you have the letter, it would be nice to also write down the family history as well. So much of the history behind these firearms is lost when the owner passes or other relatives don't either know the history or even care about it. I find the family histories very informative and sort of a look back in time. I had a good friend with whom it was my honor to work with. He was a WWII vet and authored a small book about his service. After reading it I had come to realize that the 1911A1 1943 Ithaca 45 he horse traded to me some twenty years was his service pistol. Sadly he passed away two years ago and I never thought to ask him about it. Thanks for sharing. Frank

That's exactly why I'm trying to figure out as much as I can. The muzzleloader I have which has been in the family since at least they 1860s, I wood-burned the summary version of its history into a plaque which is in the showcase with the gun...that's about as permanent a record as I could make for it.

 

[jhde69]

Belknap

Belknap was a hardware distributor. Had been in business since before the civil war but could not survive the 1980,s. I had a hardware store for 40 years in Iowa and used them. Thay did a lot of business upper midwest.

 

[ACP230]

Do you have the name of the ship?
I plan to visit the Whitefish Point museum sometime and it would
be interesting to know which one we have been discussing.

 

[bobbyz]

I live in Louisville, Kentucky. Belknap Hardware was one of the largest suppliers of sporting goods, i.e. firearms, in the midwest and south during their day. The actual building is still standing down on Main Street near the waterfront. Currently it houses Humana Insurance which bought the place a few decades ago after Belknap went out of business. They completely refurbished the insides and if you drive by on Interstate 64, you can still see the building. I've had two guns in the past that trace their origins back to that location. One was a 1920's vintage Colt Government Model in .45 ACP and the other was a 1920's vintage Smith & Wesson Model 1903 in .32 S&W Long.